This episode of Career Compass is brought to you by hosts Kevin Abbed and Demetrius Norman and features Executive Network member Donovan Mattole. Donovan shares his career journey and how his mindset has developed throughout his time in HR.
This episode of Career Compass is brought to you by hosts Kevin Abbed and Demetrius Norman and features Executive Network member Donovan Mattole. Donovan shares his career journey and how his mindset has developed throughout his time in HR.
Earn 0.5 SHRM PDC for listening to this podcast; details provided in-episode.
Rate and review Career Compass on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get podcasts.
Kevin Abbed:
Since the recording of this episode, Donovan has accepted a new position of CHRO with Langan Engineering and Environmental Services.
Demetrius Norman:
Welcome back to season seven of Career Compass, a podcast from SHRM and The SHRM Foundation. The Career Compass prepares the future leaders today for a better workplace tomorrow.
Kevin Abbed:
Thank you for joining us for this episode. My name is Kevin Abbed.
Demetrius Norman:
I am Demetrius Norman, and I will be your co-host for this particular episode. During this episode, we are continuing the conversation on the HR journey.
Kevin Abbed:
We are extremely excited about today's conversation. And with that, Career Compass would like to warmly welcome Donovan Mattole, Vice President, Human Resources of Americas at Brenntag.
Donovan Mattole:
Thank you both for the invitation. It's my pleasure to be here, and really looking forward to this conversation.
Demetrius Norman:
With that said, let's get started. Donovan, I am excited to get this conversation going. I've had an opportunity to stalk you a little bit on LinkedIn. You have an extensive background, including your current work at Brenntag. Can you just share how your career led you to HR?
Donovan Mattole:
It's a serpentine journey, if you will, Demetrius, but I can see some of the threads that led me into it. I was studying Middle Eastern studies in Jerusalem in graduate school and took a temporary pause, moved back from Jerusalem to Portland, Oregon and got a job in a bookstore. That's where I had worked at undergrad. Loved books and started working there, and quickly was promoted to an assistant manager and store manager. My plans for a PhD in Middle Eastern Studies got delayed and delayed and then forgotten as I managed four different stores.
Over the next six years, I realized what I was passionate about was training and developing, and coaching, and performance management. All the things that are HR related, those are the things I gravitated to and just loved. I went back to school at nights. I got a second degree in human resources and leveraged that to move into a regional HR role. That was my first role. It was with the company I was with, so I had built credibility with them. They already knew me, and I was able to leverage that into my first HR career.
Demetrius Norman:
No, that's awesome.
Donovan Mattole:
Yeah.
Demetrius Norman:
Actually, you touched on the next question, but I did notice that the training element that is the foundation of your experience. What was the light bulb moment for you when you were just like, "You know what? HR is going to be my landing spot?"
Donovan Mattole:
Yeah. I wanted to be a professor. I love development. I love teaching. I love talking to people about things and how things work. It was that training piece that really said, "Hey, how can I do this as a career?" My grandfather was the Head of HR for Johnson & Johnson companies globally. He worked there for 40 years. I knew about HR and I was like, "This could be it." That's what led me to it.
Of course, as you and I know, once you get into HR, you realize, "Oh, it's a lot more than just training and development." But that was my initial interest that piqued my interest. Borders was a great company. Unfortunately, it no longer exists, but I was there 11 years. For the next six years, we opened dozens of stores all across the West Coast and really grew the company. That's where you led into talent acquisition and employee relations, and succession planning, and a lot of the other functions.
Kevin Abbed:
You touched on in your background, having to go back to school at night. One thing we've really noticed in the human resource industry is there are a lot of what we call nontraditional students, who don't take that general 18 to 22-year-old, go to campus, live in a dorm and do the whole four-year somewhere else. What advice would you give a current HR professional who's considering returning to school, or potentially receiving some kind of additional credential?
Donovan Mattole:
Good question that you're asking. I have all of the credentials, including SHRM's credential for HR. And for me, I think they add a lot of credibility, and they show your interest in the profession. They're one of those things that aren't required. You don't need the certificate to get into HR. I think a lot of times that people want to go back, they're like, "Oh, this is going to do a lot to take me to the next level." Those aren't the things that differentiate you as far as getting you to the next level, but they do add a credibility that show the industry and show people that you are serious about it.
What I would say is, really look forward and say, where do you want to go? What do you want to do? I always look at my career in five-year increments, which are like two jobs, two positions. I say, what do I need to do to get there? And what position one job out is going to get me the position I want five years out? And additional education. If you're considering an MBA or you're considering a certificate, think about the requirements for that job that's five years out and is that needed? And if it makes sense, then I would say do it. What I would not say is just do something just because.
That's where I see a lot of people go back and get a second degree or additional certifications that will help them. It adds some credibility. It gives you some additional knowledge, but it might not be what you need to get you to that position.
Kevin Abbed:
I really like that outlook. In the days of LinkedIn, where you click on someone's bio and they have nine different certifications behind their name, and I'm like, "Man, are you really needing all of that to do," exactly what you said, "a specific role?" I love the outlook of looking at your future and okay, here's my goal, here's my aspiration. Is this actually something, a stepping stone that's needed to get there, or is this just something that I'm doing because it was offered to me?
Donovan Mattole:
I think that's exactly right. I think a lot of those certifications don't hurt. None of them, none of them. They're going to all add additional knowledge to you. But as an executive that oversees a huge company's human resources function, I'm looking more at experiences and what the individual has done and what jobs they've had.
For me, every choice tells a story. You could add a dozen certifications and qualifications on every single assessment that's out there. That's not going to be what differentiates you. What differentiates you is, what are the positions that you've held and do those tell a story to get you to where you want to go and what I need and what I'm looking for?
Demetrius Norman:
I love that. Intentionality and just being strategic about where you want to end up is so important. One of the things that I noticed about your experience overall, Donovan, is the fact that you have experience across multiple industries. Now, I know this isn't one of the questions that we jotted down, but can you talk a little bit about how HR practitioners can pivot from industry to industry, and what some of those common threads are?
Donovan Mattole:
Yeah. It's such a good question, Demetrius, because HR is one of those unique functions. One of the things that I think makes our profession so exciting is, we can work in any industry. Because at the end of the day, you're talking about succession, planning engagement, you're talking about training and development, paying people, providing benefits, compensation. It doesn't matter if you're in retail or in your manufacturing, you're in consumer products or you're in chemical distribution, all of those are ones that I've been in, every single one is completely different.
What you have to have is good learning agility. You really have to be someone that asks the questions and comes in where you may be an expert on human capital, but you don't know what you're joining. A bank is very different than a hospital, which is very different than a chain of car dealerships. So, coming in and saying, "Hey, what do you do?" Digging in, getting to know what the company does, and then you can speak the language and have credibility. It really doesn't matter, because this toolbox you bring is very transferable to the different industries.
Demetrius Norman:
That is so good. That is so good. If you were filled, or in a room filled with HR professionals who are considering either getting the SHRM certification or any other credential, or returning to school, basically doing most of the things that you've done to get you to this point, what would you tell them?
Donovan Mattole:
Well, I would say that I like to see the SHRM certificate and the certification. One of the reasons I like to see that, to me, is it doesn't tell me that person has all the knowledge. Because you're going to get that on the job. But what it tells me is, they're not just filling an application to get into HR because they heard it's fun. They really take it seriously, and they put in some time to learn the functional skills. And so, it adds a credibility to you that just goes, "Okay, they're serious." I will set up networking calls regularly. People will say, "Hey, I'm interested in HR. Can you do an introductory interview networking call?" When I see individuals that have that certificate, I'm like, "Okay, they're really serious about it." I would say get that.
And then, as far as back to school, I prefer the business side. I went back and got another degree in HR. It wasn't relevant. What was relevant was learning the business and giving me credibility with the business. I didn't go back to study that, and I wish I would've. I've since spent more time in those areas, but I learned that on the job we're learning about the P&L, learning finance. I would recommend you get an MBA if you want to really be a strategic business partner, or you take additional business classes that give you an edge when you're sitting around the table with other business leaders.
Demetrius Norman:
Now, so in your career journey, did company size play a part in how you went after the next role? We hint at it a little bit throughout the season, but I wanted to just ask it specifically. What is your opinion about company size overall and how that impacts HR practitioners?
Donovan Mattole:
HR is HR. It's dealing with people. I don't even like the word HR. But when you think about it, at the end of the day, a small company, you're going to be a generalist. You're going to really do a little bit of everything. There are great advantages in small companies, because you're going to go an inch deep but spread across everything. If you go to a large company, because of the size, we're able to really get more specialized, and so go deeper in the functions. For me, I think it's just a choice.
I've always worked for large companies, so I don't have a lot of small-company feel, but I hire people all the time that have that. I don't think one is better than the other. I think it's really just looking at the choice, leveraging what you have. If you like a certain function in HR better than the other ones, so if you really enjoy recruiting or you really like benefits, then I would say focus in on getting into a large company. Because you can spend an entire career in just one of the functional areas of HR. And you can't do that in a small company.
You can go deep. You can work for a global company and do mobility and have mobility be your entire career, which is just one small, little piece of HR. But you can't do that in a small company. You may have one person that you're transferring over a five-year period.
Kevin Abbed:
Great. Yeah. That's such valuable insight. I think a lot of people, like you said, when they enter the HR role, it is primarily in that generalist role where, again, they're getting experience and everything. And then, I know specifically with SHRM, we have people doing talent acquisition and we have people doing comp and benefits, and we have people doing employee engagement. I think there, it's an interesting path, regardless of where you go.
Donovan Mattole:
If I were to pick, just, I would say start as a generalist in a smaller company. Because then, it'll help you decide where you want to go. Because you may find, "I don't really like recruiting. That's not for me. I'm a little more of an introvert. A recruiter is a sales job, and that's not my passion." It'll help you form, where do you want to go? Where, if you join a larger company, you're probably going to start in a specialized area. And then, as you want to move, it's a little bit harder because you're pigeonholed into that area. "Oh, they're a recruiter. What do they know about benefits?" Where, if you started out more broad, you can then narrow it down as you grow.
Kevin Abbed:
Going into your career and position now, in most organizations, some would say, or not even say, but it's recognized that there is a clear distinction in making that gap from director to vice president. When you think vice president, more often than not, they have a seat at the table. They are heavily involved in decision-making that affects the overall organization. What would you say the large differences are between those two roles, and how can people close that gap to get from the director role in a program director sense to vice president?
Donovan Mattole:
I think a lot of it depends, Kevin, on the size of the company. I don't put a lot of weight on titles, to be honest with you. I'll answer what I think you're asking, but I don't put a lot of weight on titles because we only have a certain number. We have manager, director, vice president, chief. You have these kind of levels. And if you're a company of 50 million with 200 people, you have vice presidents. And if you're a company of 20 billion, you have vice presidents. They're not equal.
But I think that the big jump that you're speaking to is hard. It's from when you're managing a functional area. You have all of talent acquisition, or all of employee relations, or all of benefits and comp, and you move to that next level, which is managing the whole group. What I would say the biggest gap is, there's the front side of HR and the backside of HR. There's the HR operations and there's the front side of talent acquisition and training and development. It's all front side with the people.
If you've only done one of those and then you're picking up the whole thing, it's a gap and it can be hard. What I encourage people to do when I'm developing them is rotate. If you've been managing talent acquisition, take a lateral move. You don't need to move to the next level. Take a lateral move and take on a different function in HR. Take on a different director role, if you will. I switch my direct reports around sometimes. And if you've had a few different functional areas, it's much easier to make that jump.
Because when you're interviewing, you're not just like, "Oh, I've overseen benefits. I'm amazing at benefits." They're like, "Yeah, but you're going to take on recruiting as the VP, and you're going to take on employee relations." "Oh, I haven't really done that before." And that becomes a gap. I don't know if that helps, but take lateral moves. If you've grown up on the business partner side, it's a little bit easier. Because you're really driving the business and you're working with the business.
But still, if you've never managed the operational side, it's a gap. And so I would say, take a lateral move for a little while.
Kevin Abbed:
Yeah. I love that. I think when people think of getting promoted, they think of making a vertical move, when you can get promoted and make a move and still be a director or still be a manager. But you're joining a different part of the business and learning that part in order to, when you do make that vertical move, you now have an understanding of not just the facet of businesses that you're initially working in, but now multiple arms of the business. You interpreted my question really well, and that is a phenomenal answer.
Donovan Mattole:
Well, it ties back real quick to your earlier question. I think it was Demetrius that might've asked. But if you're looking out five years and saying, "Okay, this is where I want to be in my career," and then think back, sometimes people are resistant on taking that lateral move because they want to go up. Where, actually, if they take the lateral move for two years, learn that, then they're going to get promoted.
Instead, they're waiting for the promotion, the promotion, the promotion, and then it doesn't come. It goes to someone else, because they would've been better suited to just learn the other area. Because learning is all about doing, and doing is about learning. They go hand-in-hand, and sometimes it takes moving to go up.
Kevin Abbed:
Right.
Demetrius Norman:
Yeah. Closing the skills gap. It's evaluating and then taking a look at, okay, what do I need to progress to the next level?
Donovan Mattole:
Yes. Yes. Yes.
Demetrius Norman:
I love that.
Donovan Mattole:
Yes.
Demetrius Norman:
Yeah. No, that's all good stuff.
Donovan Mattole:
Good stuff.
Demetrius Norman:
Look, and so great conversation is happening.
Kevin Abbed:
I want to pause for just a second to take care of a couple of housekeeping items. First, those of you listening to this podcast who are seeking professional development credit, this program is valid for 0.5 PDCs for the SHRM-CP or SHRM-SCP. The code to redeem your PDCs is 24-QSRP6. Please, note that this code will expire December 5th, 2024.
Demetrius Norman:
We're nearing the end. Donovan, this has been a really good conversation. I have one more question for you. If there was anything that you had the opportunity to do differently in your career, what would it be?
Donovan Mattole:
Hmm. It's a good question. I think my answer is nothing.
Demetrius Norman:
Okay.
Donovan Mattole:
I guess the reason I say that is, I try not to live with regrets. I try to always think forward and say, "Okay, what is the next step? What is five years out there?" I'm not going to think 20 years, but what's five years out there, and what do I need to do it from where I am today? I'm not going to look back. I actually was just on a call with a recruiter who was telling my head of talent acquisition, as a way of intro, "Hey, I know Donovan 25 years ago, and he turned down a job."
I won't list the name of the company on, because we're on a podcast. I said, "Yeah, I don't live with regrets, though. I'm fine. This is where I went." He said, "Yeah, but that company's stock, you could have been a multimillionaire." Maybe a little bit of regret there on your choices, but I'm just joking in saying that in aside. Because in reality, you learn from your choices, and I really try to look forward.
Demetrius Norman:
But that's so important. It's the intentionality behind the initial decision anyway. I love that, and that's the word for the rest of the year; live with no regrets.
Donovan Mattole:
Live with no regrets.
Demetrius Norman:
Thank you for that.
Donovan Mattole:
That's excellent.
Demetrius Norman:
Yeah.
Donovan Mattole:
Well, thank you both.
Kevin Abbed:
Yeah. With that, we're going to go ahead and bring this episode of Career Compass to a close. Thank you all for joining us, and we hope you stay with us throughout the season as we discuss more topics like this episode.
Demetrius Norman:
For more exclusive content, resources, and tools to help you succeed in your career, consider joining SHRM as a student member. You can also visit us at shrm.org/students to learn more.
Kevin Abbed:
Lastly, are you looking for more work and career-related podcasts? Check out All Things Work and Honest HR at shrm.org/podcast. Thank you, again, for listening, and we'll catch you on the next episode of Career Compass.