Everyone feels like an unqualified fraud at some point, despite past achievements that reflect your competence. This is the psychological phenomenon of imposter syndrome, and in this episode of Career Compass, corporate wellness expert Christi Venable joins hosts Aly Sharp and Demetrius Norman to discuss imposter syndrome, the countering role of positive self-talk, and the importance of creating psychologically safe workplaces.
Everyone feels like an unqualified fraud at some point, despite past achievements that reflect your competence. This is the psychological phenomenon of imposter syndrome, and in this episode of Career Compass, corporate wellness expert Christi Venable joins hosts Aly Sharp and Demetrius Norman to discuss imposter syndrome, the countering role of positive self-talk, and the importance of creating psychologically safe workplaces.
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Aly Sharp: Welcome back to season eight of Career Compass, a podcast from SHRM and the SHRM Foundation. Career Compass prepares the future leaders today for better workplaces tomorrow.
Demetrius Norma...: Thank you for joining us for this episode. My name is Demetrius Norman.
Aly Sharp: And my name is Aly Sharp. I'll be your other co-host. This season, we're covering topics related to returning to office, mental health and AI. For this episode, we're excited to talk about a very familiar topic to some of us, imposter syndrome.
Demetrius Norma...: I'm excited to get into this discussion. We would like to recognize the celebration of Women's History Month, so a shout-out to all of the women who've made an impact in corporate America and just the workplace. We're also excited to have our guests join us today. Career Compass would like to warmly welcome Christi Venable. Christi is an award-winning business owner, corporate wellness, organizational leadership and culture change expert and speaker. She's also a licensed professional counselor by trade. She's the founder of SMILE Therapy Services, a multimillion-dollar business that she managed to build from the ground up. What a huge accomplishment. SMILE Therapy Services is committed to providing top-notch mental health and wellness services that help provide or help improve, I'm sorry, workplace cultures and make them more psychologically safe through preventive and transformative counseling and wellness solutions. I love this model, one person, one spirit, and one smile at a time.
In 2020, Christi was awarded the U.S. Small Business Administration's Small Businessperson of the Year for Washington D.C. And in 2023 she was named an Enterprising Woman of the Year. Her company, SMILE Therapy Services, has been named one of the fastest growing companies in the country by Inc. 5000 two years in a row. As a minority and woman-owned company, she's proud to be certified with WBENC, 8(a), and NMSDC. She is also a proud member of the BOW Collective, an organization at the nation's top 1% of black women business owners. With that said, I would like to introduce Christi, our guest for this episode.
Christi Venable: Yes. Thank you so much. It is a pleasure to be here. So excited to discuss this conversation in specific, and this topic is definitely a crucial topic, so I'm glad that we're going to be able to discuss it.
Demetrius Norma...: We are as well. With that said, we're going to get into the discussion. We kicked off this season discussing mental health and we say as a part two to that conversation, we're continuing that direction to discuss imposter syndrome, which is a topic that we're all familiar about. As we set the stage, Christi, can you tell us what exactly is imposter syndrome?
Christi Venable: Yeah. It's really a psychological phenomenon like we like to say it in the mental health world, but it is when individuals doubt their accomplishments and/or have a persistent fear of being exposed as a fraud, despite evidence of their competence and skills and accomplishments that they have had. So, it can affect anyone regardless of their success or qualifications. And then, just another kind of definition, it reflects a belief that you are inadequate and incompetent, a failure, despite evidence that indicate that you are skilled and quite successful. So, you can definitely see the patterns of what that is in both different definitions.
Demetrius Norma...: Wow. For some of the leaders that are listening, how would some of them be able to recognize that or how it shows up in the workplace?
Christi Venable: Yeah. Definitely a good question. Some ways that it shows up in the workplace because there's a lot of different ways that it can show up, and sometimes, it's not even as noticeable as you might think, right? Because a lot of it is internal, so it is that negative self-talk, right?
Demetrius Norma...: Mm-hmm.
Christi Venable: Or that internal doubt. So, sometimes you may not can see that, but it also sometimes comes out in how people respond to themselves. So, if you may find one of your colleagues or employees may have difficulty accepting praise, so when you are praising them or they have just completed something that was big, they don't really give their self credit or they downplay that or they downplay the praise that you give them, right? So, they struggle with accepting accomplishments. That is one indicator.
Comparing themselves. When someone constantly compares themselves to other peers or feeling like they can't live up to what someone else is doing, that is another way to recognize if someone may be struggling with imposter syndrome. Other ways could show up as perfectionism or overworking, so setting really high standards for themselves and then working themselves to death to be able to accomplish those standards is another way of noticing that someone may be experiencing imposter syndrome. So, there's definitely different ways and we have to make sure that as a leader we are really in tune with our employees to really notice if they may be struggling with this or not.
Aly Sharp: I have no words to respond because it's like you're in my brain. Literally, I'm looking at myself. We have our little pictures up and I made this sweater that I'm wearing and everyone is like, "Oh, my God, that's so amazing." It's pretty cool, but I'm just like, "No, please stop looking at me. I can't handle this. It's just crochet. It's not that big of a deal."
Christi Venable: And that's a downplay, right? Actually, think about how many people cannot crochet.
Aly Sharp: I'm going to love talking to you today.
Christi Venable: But really think about that. If you think about just an example you gave, that sweater is amazing, right? People pay a lot of money to get crocheted items and you made that sweater. This sweater is first of all multicolored, multipattern. It gives me even coming up on Easter, so I'm feeling very just lovely. I smile immediately when I see the sweater, and then you actually incorporated just with the white piece on the collar, and then you have all the other colors. It's very intricate, right? So, just that one example shows how we downplay our abilities. You are probably one in thousand of people who actually can crochet like that, so think about that number.
Aly Sharp: That is so nice. Thank you. On the topic of mental health, I will truly say that learning how to crochet has helped me so much. I don't sit on my phone. I know Gen Z is notorious for having no personality, just sit on social media all day, and it has helped me so much. There will be times where I don't check my phone for three hours because I'm busy watching and I can still watch TV, but I'm not inundated in comparison that might be on social media and stuff like that.
Christi Venable: Exactly.
Aly Sharp: If anyone's listening and wants a new hobby, you should try to crochet. This sweater I think took me about a month or so to make. It's mainly granny squares, which people in yarn or crafting, they kind of know what that means. But it has orange and purple and blue and green granny squares and a off white trim, like Christi said. Actually, I intended for it to be a cardigan, so I did make button holes. And then, this morning, I decided that I didn't like it as a cardigan, so I just did a little zipper stitch down the front and now it's a sweater.
Christi Venable: I love that.
Aly Sharp: I was just like, "I don't like this the way it is, so I'm going to fix it up." Now, I love it. But let's get this show back on track.
Demetrius Norma...: No. This is good. One of the things that actually Aly you ushered us in is we have multiple generations within the workforce, so I'm sure the imposter syndrome shows up differently in each of those demographics. Christi, in your experience, and I know this is not one of the questions that we have, as a manager, what can I expect to see or recognize in terms of behaviors in individuals that may report to me that fall within these different generations, and then just from a leadership perspective?
Christi Venable: Yeah. I mean, I definitely think that as leaders, we really have to be aware of the different generations and just how they show up for work and generally. Right? I actually feel like the younger generation... I always forget what generation I'm in. I'm like, "Am I X, Y, Z? I don't know." But I feel like the generation younger than myself, for them, they actually show up with more just boldness. Right. They come out of grad school, even college feeling like, "Here I am. I am the great, and I deserve a hundred thousand dollars with no experience." So, for them, they may not experience something like an imposter syndrome, as much as we do as the older generation. I also think it's because of the culture, how our different experiences that we've had, and I think imposter syndrome definitely was in that baby booming era, one, because let's think about just how the workplace was.
Especially for people of color, if you are in a organization where you didn't see yourself, and then you transitioned or you were able to work your way up the ladder, then you definitely had some feelings of do I deserve to be here? Am I good enough for this space? Am I going to get to where I hope to be? So, that's where a lot of imposter syndrome can come from in the workplace, you not seeing yourself in the places where you're trying to go. So, I think for leaders, I think it's going to be helpful for us to understand our environment and our culture, and is our culture actually contributing to someone maybe having imposter syndrome?
So, I think as leaders, one, we really look into that. How is our culture? How is the workplace space? Is it safe for people? And then, are we actually creating a culture where everyone feels like they can grow and they can be successful without feeling like they're imposters? So, I think for leaders, you taking that outlook as it relates to imposter syndrome. How are you making sure that the workplace is conducive for everyone, so that we aren't having this feeling of imposter syndrome? But then, some of the things that I discussed before, really looking at how does it show up for people or how can it show up for people?
So, I think if you are in tuned with your employees, really fully understanding them, knowing them, then you will be able to identify if they are struggling with imposter syndrome, by the way that they're maybe speaking, by the way that they're acting, by the way that they're responding to you or to other people in the workplace. I think that's my thought on one, generation wise, where we are, where we fall, but then how leaders can one, make the space safe, but then two, be able to recognize if they are seeing imposter syndrome in their employees.
Demetrius Norma...: Wow.
Aly Sharp: One thing that kind of stuck out to me is you mentioned creating a space or a culture where imposter syndrome might thrive or what does that look like?
Christi Venable: I think when you think about the workplace and you think about safety, right? I say we for my company, for our corporation, and we really focus on how do you create a psychologically safe culture for employees? We do that in terms of improving the workplace culture as it relates to mental health and wellness. But think about it, if your culture one, is one-dimensional, meaning that it looks like everyone looks the same besides one or two people, that's already a culture that you need to really look at. What are we doing? Are we really making this a diverse place? And then, is this a safe space, especially for those employees who may not look like everyone else?
That's really number one, but then number two is if you have a culture that does not really praise people for what they are doing, that maybe is negative in the way they are responding to individuals and their success. That creates a culture where people now, I have to second guess or I have to think twice about the success that I even want to create here because is it going to be praise? Is it going to be accepted? Am I going to be acknowledged for what I am doing? So, when I say creating a safe space, it encompasses everything. It encompasses if people even feel happy to come to work. It encompasses if people feel safe enough to really engage the way you want them to engage, so that they're being productive. But then it also encompasses do we have a negative or toxic culture of the employees that are here? How do they respond? Are we positive to each other? What type of culture do we have? We really have to make sure that we are creating a culture where it's not increasing that imposter syndrome for people.
Demetrius Norma...: I like that. I like that. As you were talking, I'm thinking about our audience overall. Career Compass focuses on the emerging professional, and I couldn't help to think that a lot of them are in the process of graduating and preparing for the workforce. Just if you had to offer any advice to the group of leaders who are preparing to enter the workforce of how they should be present when they are preparing to enter corporate America, especially in HR, what are some tips and tools that you would give that group to just say these are things that you should be aware of?
Christi Venable: Yeah. I think first, be aware. Have that self-reflection for yourself. Acknowledge how far you have come already. Even though you may not be in the workforce yet or you may be new to the workforce, acknowledge that you have made some accomplishments and you were able to get to where you are now. And then, use that really as a force to drive you, especially when you're doubting yourself. So, making sure you are taking note of your accomplishments, and sometimes you might need to write them down and continue to write them down as you're going along in your career, so that when that doubt kicks in, that negative self-talk, that's something that we have to be aware of. But when that kicks in, you can go back to your list of accomplishments and say, "No, I have accomplished all of these things. I am worthy to be here. I do have the skill set to be X, Y, and Z."
Sometimes people think because you are younger that you can't make the impact in a workplace that maybe others can make because they've been there longer. But for me, that's imposter syndrome because it doesn't matter how old you are. If you have the skill set and you have the willpower, you can make the impact.
Demetrius Norma...: I love that.
Christi Venable: That's something that I've always just pushed in my own life because I may be a younger CEO who have experienced a lot of growth, but even coming into my career as a counselor when I started off in the schools, when I first got out of grad school, I'm like, "I'm going to transform this counseling world." And I was just getting out of grad school, but I was determined, right? I knew what I had in me and I knew the passion that I had in the field, so for me, even though I was young, I was 20 something, it didn't matter. I was going to go in full force in that career, and I did, right? I did.
So, I would really encourage people to take a self-inventory, know who you are, know what you are, but know why you're doing what you're doing and that should always fuel you and drive you into whatever, in any career, whatever your career is. But in any position that you have, your why should drive you. That in itself should allow that imposter syndrome to minimize when you know why you are there, why you are doing the things you are doing, and when you know that you are just as important as everyone else. So, making sure you're taking inventory, making sure you are tracking your accomplishments and making sure you know that you are just as important as everyone else, but then you have to not do the comparisons.
Aly Sharp: Right.
Christi Venable: Right? There's a saying, comparison is just an act of the devil. You are comparing yourself, but their life is not your life, so what they are meant to do, you are not meant to do. So, we really can't compare each other because everyone is here on a singular path that has nothing to do with the other person. So, when we compare, we're comparing apple to oranges. That's why we shouldn't compare, right?
So, making sure you're not comparing yourself to other people and just building your resilience. You're not going to be 100% in everyone, so you can't have that perfectionism. We're not perfect people, so we have to understand that. Use your failures as a way to build up for your future because they are not failures per se. They're really just learning lessons. When you look at it like that, it's like, "Okay. Well, that didn't work, so what did I learn from this situation? And then, how can I use this situation to be a building block to where I'm trying to go?" I think if that is what you hold onto when you even enter your career, that it'll take you far.
Aly Sharp: I love this being a career spring chicken, I guess you could say. I only have two years under my belt, so it's really nice to hear because oftentimes, I'm like, "I'm the youngest person in this office. Why am I here right now?" Or it's like, "Nobody thinks that I have the same level of competence or confidence," which actually kind of ties into our next question, but just because I'm so young, my master's is done in May, so maybe I'll have that same mentality where I'll just bust through the gates and be like, "This is about to get turned on its head." But to kind of tie into that, what can students or emerging professionals, people who are new to their career, what can they do to build confidence and reinforce their competence?
Christi Venable: Yeah. I definitely think that we have to start with ourselves, and that starts with our self-talk or we call them intrusive thoughts. We can have a lot of intrusive thoughts. We have thousands of thoughts a day and a lot of them may be negative, but we have to make sure that we are being able to recognize those intrusive thoughts, and then being able to swap those intrusive thoughts out with positive self-talk. I think that's first and foremost because that's internal, that's within you, and that's something that's literally going on all day every day. So, challenge those negative thoughts and replace them with positive affirmations.
If you find that you're not maybe the best at really being a positive person, then write down positive affirmations and have them around you. Have them on your phone if that's something that you have. Have them as your screensaver on your phone, but make sure you are always speaking that positivity into yourself to know that all those negative thoughts that are coming up, that does not define you. So, have that positive affirmation around you to help you focus on your strengths and your skills that you bring to the table. So, I would say definitely start with that first.
And then, I would say set realistic goals for yourself. Right? Sometimes we're overachievers. We're coming in and yes, I say do it full force, but let's be realistic. Let's be realistic on your goals. Let's make sure they are manageable. Right? Let's make sure that you are setting SMART goals. They're specific. They are measurable. We've all heard of SMART goals, actionable, realistic. So, that you can actually get to the place that you're trying to go. But sometimes it takes steps, so making sure we're setting realistic goals can also help us to not have that self-doubt, but also be very down if we don't actually hit a goal. Right? So, setting realistic goals for yourself I think is super important. And then, celebrate the small wins. Sometimes we're not going to have huge wins.
Aly Sharp: That's my favorite thing to do.
Christi Venable: Yeah. Right? Sometimes we're not going to have huge wins all the time, but let's celebrate those small wins because those small wins equal up to big wins. Let's celebrate those successes, and that will also help you when you are having any self-doubt to say, "You know what? No. This week, I was able to do this, this, and this." So, that really helps you when you are having some self-doubt.
And then, I would say be a lifelong learner. Especially as you're coming into the field, don't think just because you have your degree that you know everything because we don't yet. Make sure that your mind is set up to say, "You know what? I'm going to really go out and get that professional development. I'm going to learn as much as I can. I'm going to tap into a mentor, so that they can teach me the ropes." But make sure you're always in this continuous learning state and stage, and don't feel like you have to know everything, especially when you are just entering the field. It takes people years to really know and be able to build on their craft, so make sure that you just keep that in mind.
And then, I just say, have a good support system. Create a good support system, whether it is you have your family and your close friend support system, but then really create that professional support system where you can connect with other people. You can share your experiences. You can just talk about how you're feeling. You all pour into each other because that also can help you with building up your confidence and your competence, so that we are not really focused on this imposter syndrome and feeling like we are a fraud, but we are indeed really learning and getting the support and professional development we need to become even better at our jobs.
I would definitely say those things, but also set boundaries. I guess I'll end with make sure we're setting boundaries, not overcommitting because you're trying to people please, and not overworking because you feel like if you are not working, that someone will look at you a certain way or your boss might think something. But remember that you need time for yourself because having one, overworking, overcommitting, not setting boundaries, but also having that increased sense of failure or self-doubt also leads to mental health challenges. Right? So, we have to remember that. It leads to increased anxiety, increased depression, so we have to be aware of what we're doing, how we're talking to ourselves, but then the boundaries that we are setting, we're not setting that may contribute to the detriment of our mental health. So, definitely, we want to make sure we keep those things into play as well.
Aly Sharp: Yeah. I'm the queen of the nine to five soapbox on this podcast. I will check for urgent things, but please don't talk to me. There have been times where even Demetrius... I'll pop on Slack to make sure we're all good to go with our student stuff, and he's like, "Okay, bye now. You can go."
Demetrius Norma...: What's interesting is she set that cadence, so I respect it, so without saying it, I picked up on it. Meanwhile, on the other hand, I will be on Slack or messaging probably as late as 10:00, 11:00. I hope that doesn't get me in trouble. Yeah. So, you're absolutely right, but I think in terms of that boundary piece, it is important and it's important for leaders to also pay attention to the rhythm in which the folks under them work and communicate what that expectation is, but also pay attention to what those triggers are or what may be coming up for the people that they lead to help guide them through some of this stuff. Yeah. No, this was all good stuff, all good stuff.
I hate to take a break, but we got to pause to just take care of a few housekeeping items. First, for those who are listening to this podcast and you're seeking professional development credit, this program is valid for 0.5 PDCs for the SHRM-CP or the SHRM-SCP. The code to redeem your PDCs is 25-9CSE, and the number 6. The code again, is 25-9CSE6. Note that this code will expire on March 6th, 2025. We got a few moments left in the podcast. Aly, I see you're burning to ask one or two more questions.
Aly Sharp: Well, I was going to do a quick plug-
Demetrius Norma...: Go ahead.
Aly Sharp: ... since this episode is coming out before the SHRM Annual Conference and Expo 2024. We have a very hefty goal to get our students there because we have an insane experience onsite in Chicago. Of course, we do have virtual attendees as well, but we love to see everyone in person. I always have a blast seeing all the student members. Students can actually attend for just $495, which is a massive steal compared to the professional price, whether non-member or not. So, if you want to learn more about SHRM24 or the student experience, go to annual.shrm.org.
Demetrius Norma...: Awesome. Thank you, Aly, for bringing that to everyone's attention. Again, go to our website. We would love to have you experience our SHRM24 Conference, which will be in Chicago this year. We have a few more moments just for one last question. Christi, out of all of the stuff that we discussed, if there were some closing remarks or just reminders that you could leave with our listeners, what would that be?
Christi Venable: I would say to anyone, as they have listened to this podcast and maybe a light bulb have come on, and they said, "Ooh, I may be struggling with imposter syndrome," I will say to you to just remember that you are one of a kind and you are put here for a reason, right? And your life's work doesn't look like anyone else's life's work, and know that you are special in your own way and never forget that. So, as you are maybe becoming aware of what imposter syndrome is, whether you knew that you already had this and you are working through it, I just encourage you to always make sure that you are looking at yourself in a positive light and just make sure that you are taking the steps necessary to manage any negative self-talk that you may have because it definitely is a real thing.
Also, make sure that you are being aware of how it may be affecting your mental health and wellness and get support for that. And don't feel like that you are embarrassed or that you can't reach out to someone. If you feel comfortable reaching out to a therapist if it may not be that serious, reach out to your family or friends, a trusted colleague, someone who you can just bounce something off of. Just have a conversation about it. I think that's so important. Just make sure it's not staying with you because when we are dealing with something and we don't get it out, then that starts to not just give us mental health challenges, but it also starts to give us physical health challenges.
I just want to make sure that people know and understand that you are worthy of all that you have, so do not let anyone dim your light or let anyone make you feel as though you have not worked hard to get where you are. I just want to make sure to leave people with positivity. Get you some positive self-affirmations that work for you, but know that you are wonderfully and fearfully made, so don't let anyone change your mind or opinion about yourself. I just want to make sure people speak life into themselves and not allow that negative self-talk or people's negative opinions about you affect how you feel about yourself.
Demetrius Norma...: I love that.
Aly Sharp: That is amazing like the cherry on top.
Demetrius Norma...: Yes. I was going to say, I wish folks could see you, Aly, because she is grinning.
Aly Sharp: I'm glowing.
Demetrius Norma...: No, literally. For those of you who are listening, Aly is glowing.
Aly Sharp: I just keep smiling the whole time. I'm like, "I am a light. Thank you."
Demetrius Norma...: Christi-
Christi Venable: You are. You are.
Aly Sharp: Oh, my gosh.
Demetrius Norma...: Yes. Yes. Yes. I love this. Listen, we would love to continue this conversation, Christi, but thank you so much for taking the time out of your schedule to be with us on this podcast. We really appreciate you being with us.
Christi Venable: Yes, thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it.
Demetrius Norma...: No, it's all good. With that, we're going to bring this episode of Career Compass to a close. Thank you all for joining us, and we hope you stay with us throughout this season as we discuss more topics like this episode.
Aly Sharp: For more exclusive content, resources, and tools to help you succeed in your career, consider joining SHRM as a student member. You can visit us at shrm.org/students to learn more.
Demetrius Norma...: Lastly, are you looking for more work in career-related podcasts? Check out All Things Work and Honest HR at shrm.org/podcast. With that said, thank you for listening, and we'll catch you on the next episode of Career Compass.