This episode kicks off Season 8 with a topic that's top-of-mind for many HR professionals: Burnout. Many encounter it, and many likewise have difficulty effectively handling the challenging emotional experience. Janice Litvin has dedicated the later part of her career to teaching people how to improve their mental and physical health after feelings of burnout, and in this episode of Career Compass, she shares her approaches to leading a burnout-free career.
This episode kicks off Season 8 with a topic that's top-of-mind for many HR professionals: Burnout. Many encounter it, and many have difficulty effectively handling the challenging emotional experience. Janice Litvin has dedicated the later part of her career to teaching people how to improve their mental and physical health after feelings of burnout, and in this episode of Career Compass, she shares her approaches to leading a burnout-free career.
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Aly Sharp:
Welcome to season eight of Career Compass, a podcast from SHRM and the SHRM Foundation. Career Compass prepares the future leaders today for better workplaces tomorrow.
Demetrius Norman:
Thank you all for joining us for this episode. My name is Demetrius Norman.
Aly Sharp:
And my name is Aly Sharp. This season, we're covering topics related to returning to office, mental health, and artificial intelligence. To kick off this season, we're going to cover burnout, how to recognize it, combat it, and protect yourself from it moving forward in your career.
Demetrius Norman:
We are extremely excited about today's conversation, and with that, Career Compass would like to warmly welcome Janice Litvin. Janice has spent the latter part of her career helping people take care of their physical and mental health. She has developed unique strategies to maximize engagement in workplace wellness and has also developed a stress management methodology available through her workbook, Banish Burnout Toolkit. It's a great toolkit for those who are interested.
Janice Litvin:
Thank you so much. I'm delighted to be here, Demetrius and Aly.
Aly Sharp:
Let's get started. So Janice, I want to start off with the basics. How would you define burnout?
Janice Litvin:
Great question, Aly. Well, as you may or may not know, the World Health Organization declared burnout to be a syndrome back in 2019 before the pandemic, and define it as a chronic workplace stress that has not been successfully managed. And I really want to point out the word chronic.
Aly Sharp:
And so particularly, since it says workplace in that definition, how would that appear in students and early professionals?
Janice Litvin:
Well, no matter what you're doing, whether you're a student or an emerging professional, burnout can look the same. For example, there are a number of physiological and emotional symptoms. So let's start with the physiological. People have reported getting migraine headaches, reduced immune system function, which means getting sick more often, higher blood pressure, lower GI problems, and the biggie, trouble sleeping. So that's the physiological.
Emotionally, people start to withdraw, they start to feel overwhelmed. They might catch themselves snapping at someone they love, when really that angst wasn't meant for that person. So angry outbursts.
Aly Sharp:
And I know especially the pandemic has just exacerbated some of those feelings as well.
Janice Litvin:
Hugely, yes.
Demetrius Norman:
Absolutely. Interestingly, our leadership team was actually talking about burnout and mental health and how as leaders, we can be more mindful of the team that we lead. So when we think about those symptoms and the things that you described, how can our listeners recognize these behaviors within themselves and within others?
Janice Litvin:
Yes, great question. Well, first of all, again, if they catch themselves snapping at somebody that they care about, they really ... I mean, anytime you yell at somebody that you work with or care about, it's a good time to take a pause and say, "What was that about? Was that about the situation? Am I overreacting or am I upset about something else?" And quite often it's about something else. You might be carrying your workload home or your home issues to work.
Another symptom is feelings of overwhelm and also brain fog, just starting to not be as sharp with your critical thinking.
Aly Sharp:
That's kind of how I feel balancing school and work and life and trying to be social. You're just like, "There's so many things that I feel like I have to do because I'm almost 25, and that's what young people do." And it's so hard for me to prioritize not going-
Janice Litvin:
Yes.
Aly Sharp:
Not over-exerting myself in any of those areas. So with that, once you recognize that you are feeling burnt out, whether it be with school, with work, family, friends, whatever, what are some tactics that students and early professionals can use to shift those feelings or change that mindset?
Janice Litvin:
Before I answer that, I just want to comment on something you said. You mentioned being a young person and feeling like you have to do it all. Everybody I come across, no matter the generation, everybody feels the same way. They're feeling overwhelmed.
But to answer your question, the first thing is to make sure you are building daily awareness, whether that means in the morning waking up and taking a couple of minutes to breathe deeply and say, "How am I feeling today? Today I want to have a good day," and become aware when those feelings pop in.
Secondly, throughout the day, whether you're a student or an early professional, stop, pause, take breaks. Even if it's 60 seconds, get up from your desk, breathe deeply. Long-term sitting can cause back problems, and it can cause people to hunch over their chest and their lungs are not filling with oxygen. Their brain and body is not filling with oxygen. It's really important to stop and stand and take deep breaths.
Another really good tool is to look away from the computer at least once an hour. And that's something that that tip has been around for a long time, but I think we all forget because we have these little screens in front of us and we're all working so hard at our computers. We need to look away and give our eyes a rest.
And then fourth, get outside. Now I know it's the middle of winter, and I know there are snow storms all over the country, but if you can put on your big coat with some gloves and a hat and get outside for even five or 10 minutes and catch that ... Even though the sun might not be shining, you're still getting the impact of having a few moments in the sun and happiness chemicals are instantly released in your body.
Demetrius Norman:
I have a question that's not a part of the script, but with most of us working remotely, could positioning where you work at home also contribute to your outlook and helping with that?
Janice Litvin:
Yes.
Demetrius Norman:
Is there something you could say just about that or for us to be mindful of?
Janice Litvin:
Yes. I did a lot of research a couple of years ago about the sun, and I'm a big proponent, as I mentioned just a second ago, if you're working at home, number one, try to have a window. Even if you don't get yourself physically outside, being near a window does allow that light to come in. I mean, all beings, animals and humans alike react to the sun and to light, and that's where we get our daily dose of the hormones we need to function.
So if you can't have a window, interestingly, have a big poster of a sunny setting like Hawaii or hiking on a mountain, whatever it is, your favorite activity is. Interestingly, if you can't get a window, but you have a poster, it also helps.
Demetrius Norman:
Wow.
Aly Sharp:
That's so interesting. I'm the biggest fan of natural light. Obviously I have no artificial lights on right now except this big window, even though it's snowy and a little bit cloudy. It's like it's better for me than having artificial light. And this past winter, I actually got a sun lamp because I've been commuting to work, so I have to get up at pitch black dark, and then I get home when it was pitch black dark. And I was like, "I am not doing too hot."
So I'm trying the sunshine lamp, and honestly, I think it really works, at least for me, because I'm such a natural light person. I looked up what level of ... I don't know exactly what the term is for how strong the light needs to be. I don't remember. All I can think of is lumens and I don't know if that's the right one. But I had to look up what level of that is best for mimicking the sunshine. And honestly, I think it really helped me out a lot through these past few months while we were working remote.
Janice Litvin:
So interestingly, to add to that, all the Northern states, Wisconsin, Illinois, Michigan, all those Northern states, as you know, have something called seasonal affective disorder. Interestingly, penned SAD for short. Just imagine the people that live in Canada and Alaska. I was in Alaska a year ago, and in Anchorage, which is Southern Alaska, they get six hours of sunlight a day. But in Northern Alaska, they get even less. Just imagine how they might be suffering during the winter months as well.
Demetrius Norman:
Wow.
Aly Sharp:
I know there's an Icelandic country I think that only gets zero, maybe one hour of sunlight a day.
Janice Litvin:
Yes, that's right.
Aly Sharp:
And I'm like, "You have to be special." You have to be built kind of different, as the kids may say, to deal with that little sunlight.
Janice Litvin:
Yes, yes. I imagine it's very frustrating.
Demetrius Norman:
Wow. So when we think about some of the things that we can do, I know that there are some resources that are available. So can you tell us about some of the outlets that are out there for people who may be feeling burnt out that they could access or lean on, whether it's their network or something bigger?
Janice Litvin:
Yes. So that brings up a really good point. Try not to be afraid to ask for help. I remember when my son started college and I said, "Ask your teachers for help." And it's the same thing in the workplace, don't be afraid to ask for help. A good manager will be asking you how you're doing and if you need any resources or any kind of support. But if the manager is not that good a manager, then it's incumbent upon you, the worker, to call a meeting, call a coffee chat, call a hike, call a walk with the manager and say, "I just want to check in with you, make sure I'm doing okay. Want to let you know how I'm feeling about my workload, and I would like to talk with you about our priorities because I want to make sure I'm prioritizing my time on the things that are the most important."
And the unspoken message is I can't work 12 hours a day, I can't work 10 hours a day ongoing for months at a time. And I have to say, everywhere I go, every client I meet, the people are taking on too much work because if someone quits, somebody else has to take on that work and they're working 12 hours a day. I mean, time management, priorities are really critical, and making sure the boss is engaged in how you're prioritizing your time so that you don't burn out. It's not good for the boss if you burn out, nor is it good for you. So part of that is learning how to set healthy boundaries with your time, whether it's at home or work.
Demetrius Norman:
Setting healthy boundaries, and I imagine that that can sometimes be a challenge for all of us.
Janice Litvin:
Yes.
Demetrius Norman:
Yeah, that's good feedback.
Janice Litvin:
I want to add one-
Aly Sharp:
[inaudible 00:11:45]-
Janice Litvin:
Oh, I'm sorry, Aly.
Demetrius Norman:
No.
Janice Litvin:
I just wanted to add one other thing. You mentioned leaning on your network. Spending time with friends, whether you have a best friend at work or a best friend at home, calling them, FaceTiming them, taking a walk with their FaceTime, or just talking to them, or just sitting and talking makes you feel better, makes you feel happier, relieves stress, just an overall better mood. And I can't stress enough when we all get busy, we forget to pick up the phone and call a friend.
Aly Sharp:
Literally last night, my sister called me and she never does that. She's 18, she's too cool for me. And I was just like, "Wow, this is the best day ever." She called, then she had to go. She called me back an hour later and she's like, "Wow, I thought you were going to be asleep." I was like, "It's not unlikely."
Janice Litvin:
That's funny. I would think you're too cool for her, but that's very funny.
Aly Sharp:
Oh, thank you. But I did have a question because you just said, approach your manager if they're not asking you those important questions about how you're doing, and it's just like, sometimes people don't feel that connection with their manager. I was just wondering if you had any insight on, I guess, relationship building in the sense where you need to build that trust with your manager or your peers and stuff like that?
Janice Litvin:
Yes. I remember having that feeling way back when I was a computer programmer at a large bank in San Francisco. One day I said, "Why don't we go to lunch? Doesn't have to be today, but we never really sit and talk together one-on-one unless it's, you need to do this and you need to do ... the daily to-do list." I said, "Why don't we just get together for fun and get to know each other better?" He was like, "Oh, okay."
It really helps to build those bonds personally with people so that they can then have that feeling of camaraderie that you want to develop. And if that's not possible, try to get together with other bosses in the organization. And the best way to do that is through the employee resource groups.
I assume in some of your organizations, there are employee resource groups for women, people of color, Latinx, et cetera. Sometimes there are people in that group you can befriend, and some of them are managers or just other people that you can bounce ideas off of.
Aly Sharp:
I'm going to pause just for a second. For those of you listening to this podcast who are seeking professional development credit, this program is valid for 0.5 PDCs for the SHRM-CP or SHRM-SCP. The code to redeem your PDCs is 25-EN3A7. Please note that this code will expire on February 13th, 2025. Again, that code is 25-EN3A7.
Janice Litvin:
Can I add to that?
Aly Sharp:
Sure.
Janice Litvin:
Reading my book, Banish Burnout Toolkit, and writing a very short essay supplies three SHRM PDCs. So I will be making available a free first chapter for your listeners.
Demetrius Norman:
Awesome.
Aly Sharp:
Wow. Thank you.
Demetrius Norman:
That is awesome. And folks, I would encourage you to take a look at it. I started looking at it, and Janice, you started talking about stop and just breaking it down, but there's more detail in the toolkit. So I'll just leave that little nugget there.
Janice Litvin:
Thank you, Demetrius.
Demetrius Norman:
No, you're welcome. You're welcome. So Janice, so in my role within SHRM, I work within our certification department and I talk to a lot of students at various colleges and universities about how to prepare to enter into the workforce. So you started to address that a little bit just in terms of developing your network.
But when we think about individuals who are preparing to enter into whatever industry for HR or outside of it, how can people in their early career development ensure that they are not cultivating a culture of burnout among their peers, and if they're leading people, their direct reports? We talked about it being multi-generational in the workforce. So how can those folks who are entering the workforce be more aware of that?
Janice Litvin:
Okay, number one, this might sound simplistic, but number one, develop daily habits of self-care, meaning self-care away from burnout. So that might mean, like I said, having an intention each day to take care of yourself, checking in with yourself throughout the day, a commitment to take self-care very seriously.
Number two, as I alluded to a moment ago, develop really strong bonds with coworkers and managers throughout the organization. As I said, ask your boss for a weekly chat, or other people in the organization so you can get to know them.
When it comes to caring for direct reports, and I do know that in some organizations, some people get promoted faster into a project management position and may or may not have a thorough training as a manager. So it's really, really important to talk to direct reports constantly, "How are you doing? Do you have everything you need to be successful? What can I do to help you?"
And most, most, most important, if you see that someone is struggling, like their behavior is just a little different, they're not their regular happy self, that is a big, big clue that cannot be overlooked. And you must take them aside and say, "How are you doing? How's everything going?" When it's appropriate, say, "I noticed that you don't quite seem to be yourself. What's going on? Would you like to talk with me or someone else? How are you doing? And what can I do to be a help and support for you?"
And then one more big, big thing is, and I like to talk about this a lot, helping the team find their higher purpose for why they work at your organization and why they're on your team. What about the work connects to them emotionally? What is the intrinsic motivation? What is the self-satisfaction from the work you're doing? The more you can connect people to their higher purpose for their job, the more they'll be happy and be excited to come to work.
Aly Sharp:
I love that. I mean, I'm sure our listeners are probably getting sick of me always saying this every season, but I try and make friends at work because, well, I studied employee engagement in undergrad, and I just know it's so important for people to not feel like their presence isn't valued beyond whatever numbers or deliverables they're making at work.
So when you mentioned making friends with other managers and other people on other teams, that is my MO. People on my floor are like, "Aly, do you know this person?" I'm like, "Yeah, that's such and such from this department." They're like, "How do you know that?" And I'm like, "I just like to know everybody and make sure that if anyone ever needs something, they can come to me."
Just such a motivation of mine, especially because I don't want to feel like my job is all that I'm worth when I walk into the building. And being able to know that people can count on me, it's just really a nice feeling.
Janice Litvin:
I'd also like to add, whether you're involved with an ERG group in your organization or there are wellness activities or a Toastmasters club, go to something in your organization as often as physically possible. Maybe you have a fitness center, you can go take a class.
And I know people get really, really busy, but if you burn out, if you don't take care of yourself and you burn out, then you're going to quit. And that's worse for yourself and the company. So go make friends with people from around the company.
Demetrius Norman:
I love that, developing and cultivating those self-care habits. And it's so important, it's so important. We were talking about that with our managers here and having them identify what they do for self-care, and there are so many avenues that are available. So thank you so much for reminding us about that.
Janice Litvin:
In the wellness circle, another thing we talk about is giving the managers a goal of making sure their teams are engaging in self-care. Get the team together and go for a walk. Or if there's going to be a health walk, like the AIDS Walk or breast cancer or one of those kind of walks for the organization, get the team together and get matching T-shirts or whatever. Build unity that way, or funny hats or whatever you want to do, and engage together as your team. That's another way to build strong bonds within a team.
Aly Sharp:
I've never thought of that, but it also helps because then you're getting that workout aspect or you're moving your body and that raises your endorphins and your dopamine. And that's about as chemical as I can get, but I think that's right.
Janice Litvin:
That's pretty chemical.
Aly Sharp:
And we've already kind of touched on it, but is there any final piece of advice that you would like to give to listeners who might be feeling burnout with school or work, or in my case and some other people's case, both?
Janice Litvin:
Well, I'm glad you asked that question, and the first thing I thought of when I looked at that question was a song by Simon and Garfunkel, "Slow down, you move too fast." A lot of us are moving too fast mentally and physically, and we really need to slow our pace. My family wanted to go on vacation for two weeks this past winter break, and I said, "Two weeks. Are you crazy? I can't take two weeks off and la, la, la, la, la." And I'm glad I did because it forced me to take a break.
The work is still there when I get back. Of course, I made sure that people who needed me knew where I was and that if there was an emergency, I could boot up my cell phone and respond to a WhatsApp text, but nobody needed me. The work is still there. And I felt so refreshed when I got back. I haven't taken a two-week break in so many years., I don't even remember. So taking breaks is good for your health, paying attention-
Aly Sharp:
I feel like you were talking right to me when you say that.
Janice Litvin:
And the other-
Aly Sharp:
Demetrius knows I don't take time off.
Demetrius Norman:
At all.
Janice Litvin:
Take time off on the weekends. Look for something fun to do, music, symphony, concerts, comedy shows especially. Laughter is such a good medicine. And going to a movie, going to a party, going out to dinner with friends.
One of the best antidotes to depression is physical activity. And you already said the magic buzzwords, dopamine and endorphins, taking a walk or going to a Zumba class. By the way, I don't know if you know, I teach Zumba for fun on Zoom, and I'm always so much happier after the class. Sometimes I take other people's classes at the gym. You mix with other people, you're dancing, you hear fun music. Maybe you like volleyball or bowling or horseback riding. Whatever it is you love to do, physical activity is a gigantic antidote to depression.
Aly Sharp:
Yeah, I can't wait, I'm making my family go line dancing with me. They do it weekly at a bar around the corner from me. I was like, "Sorry guys, we're going." I am riling up all the women in my family and I'm like, "We're going to go have a great time, listen to country music, dance around, and just act like fools, forget that we have work in the morning, because it's on Thursdays."
Janice Litvin:
But you know what you're doing? Even people who don't feel comfortable dancing, they're going to laugh.
Aly Sharp:
Exactly.
Janice Litvin:
And laughter is of course the best medicine.
Aly Sharp:
Yeah, you've just got to give it a try.
Janice Litvin:
Yeah. Yeah.
Demetrius Norman:
No. Well, you heard it here, folks. Janice, thank you so much. Those were so many helpful nuggets, and I hope our listeners pulled something from that. And we may have the opportunity to even hear from you at our conference, but if folks want to engage with you sooner than that, I encourage you all to check out Janice at her website, janicelitvin.com. That toolkit is available there. And she already mentioned it, from a development standpoint, you're able to take advantage of that opportunity. But once again, Janice, thank you for being our guest for this, for the kickoff of season eight for Career Compass.
Janice Litvin:
Oh, thank you. I'm honored to be with you, Demetrius and Aly. You were both of the consummate host and hostess. Thank you so much for having me. It's really a lot of fun.
Aly Sharp:
Thank you so much. With that, we're going to bring this episode of Career Compass to a close. Thank you all for joining us, and we hope you stay with us throughout the rest of the season as we discuss more topics like this one.
Demetrius Norman:
And for more exclusive content, resources, and tools to help you succeed in your career, consider joining SHRM as a student member. You can visit us at shrm.org/students to learn more.
Aly Sharp:
And if you're looking for more work and career related podcasts from SHRM, check out All Things Work and Honest HR on our website. Thank you again for listening. We'll catch you on the next episode of Career Compass.