<p>Success in any organization depends on successfully managing relationships in all directions, not just with supervisors. In this episode of SHRM's <em>Career Compass</em> podcast, hosts Vernon Williams and Kevin Abbed are joined by special guest Kaithlyn Kayer, SHRM-CP, a senior consultant at Evans Consulting, to discuss effective communication with managers, peers and stakeholders at every level. During this episode, listeners will learn about the differing communication needs based on position, navigating competing priorities and gaining support from fellow colleagues.<br /><br />Subscribe to Career Compass on Apple Podcasts, Google Play, Spotify, Stitcher or wherever you listen to podcasts. Check out <a href="https://www.shrm.org/hr-today/news/Pages/Podcasts.aspx">SHRM.org/podcasts</a> to listen to all of our episodes and also hear more podcasts from SHRM. And, be sure to rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts or your podcatcher of choice.<br /><br />Keep up with SHRM online and follow us on <a href="https://www.facebook.com/societyforhumanresourcemanagement">Facebook</a>, <a href="https://www.linkedin.com/company/shrm/">LinkedIn</a>, <a href="https://twitter.com/SHRM">Twitter</a> and <a href="https://www.instagram.com/shrmofficial/?hl=en">Instagram</a>.</p>
Success in any organization depends on successfully managing relationships in all directions, not just with supervisors. In this episode of SHRM's Career Compass podcast, hosts Vernon Williams and Kevin Abbed are joined by special guest Kaithlyn Kayer, SHRM-CP, a senior consultant at Evans Consulting, to discuss effective communication with managers, peers and stakeholders at every level. During this episode, listeners will learn about the differing communication needs based on position, navigating competing priorities and gaining support from fellow colleagues.
Subscribe to Career Compass on Apple Podcasts, Google Play, Spotify, Stitcher or wherever you listen to podcasts. Check out SHRM.org/podcasts to listen to all of our episodes and also hear more podcasts from SHRM. And, be sure to rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts or your podcatcher of choice.
Keep up with SHRM online and follow us on Facebook, LinkedIn, Twitter and Instagram.
Vernon Williams:
Welcome back to Career Compass, a podcast from SHRM, the Society for Human Resource Management and the SHRM Foundation. Career Compass prepares the future leaders today for better workplaces tomorrow.
Kevin Abbed:
As the voice of all things work, SHRM supports students and emerging professionals with advice, information and resources for every step of your career.
Vernon Williams:
Designed for the student or emerging professional, Career Compass delivers timely, relevant, and critical conversations about work to help you succeed in your career journey. Thank you for joining us for this episode. My name is Vernon Williams and I will be your co-host.
Kevin Abbed:
And my name is Kevin Abbed, and I will also be your co-host. During this episode, we'll discuss managing in all directions. Oftentimes we talk about managing up or how to effectively communicate with your supervisor, but it is equally important to manage relationships with peers and others, both internal and external to the organization. To help tackle this topic, we'll be joined by senior consultant at Evans Consulting, Kaithlyn Kayer.
Vernon Williams:
That being said, let's get started.
In the past, I may have mentioned a quote from Maya Angelou about how people will never forget how you make them feel, and I think this topic really gets to the core of those thoughts, especially when you're thinking about managing multiple priorities and multiple stakeholders. It's all about communication, especially for those messages that are most critical.
I remember my first job out of grad school, and I don't know if ever told you about this, Kevin, but my supervisor calls me into the office. I'm working in Philadelphia at the time at an institution, and she says to me, "I need you to work with your team members. I know you've got it all settled and all sorted out, but some of your team members could really use your assistance." I was thinking to myself like, "But I'm good."
She actually started speaking my language, and at the time it was right around the Allen Iverson practice skit. So she's like, "Vern, I know you don't want to come to practice, but you got to show up for practice." It had just resonated with me that there's so much more to communicating and showing up and being there for your team members and how you come across, kind of it sets the tone for the rest of that relationship.
So that was just the first experience I had, and I kind of carried that throughout my career and making sure that I'm communicating, not just to my manager in a particular way, because clearly we had that great relationship, but also how I communicate with my peers, and at that time, the people that I was supervising.
I know, Kevin, as hosts we all have a lot of options about the episodes that we can choose to host, but I'm curious for you, what intrigued you most about this topic that you wanted to kind of share in the hosting duties?
Kevin Abbed:
Yeah, I mean, I'm not a manager, so what really stood out to me about this episode was I aspire to be a manager. I'm young in my career, so the goal is to climb and excel. So, one day I would like to be a manager in an organization and I really wanted to be a part of this conversation kind of as a learning experience for me. You always hear that managing is a two-way street, and being new to the workforce for me, I'm still trying to learn the terrain of that landscape.
Vernon Williams:
That makes a lot of sense. One of the things I used to always tell folks when I was interviewing, particularly before I kind of reached more of the senior level management was my best lessons were those that I learned coming from managers that I had had, good and bad. So things that I wanted to take from the supervisory style and implement as I was moving, and then some things that maybe I wanted to do a little bit differently. But some of those lessons that I was able to gather very early on have helped me throughout my career.
I'm sure we're going to get more of those as we transition to our speaker today, who I'm super excited to introduce. So again, I've had a fair amount of experience, but this person, especially in their role as we worked together at George Washington University, I know she's going to have some really good nuggets. Without further ado, let me introduce her.
Kaithlyn Kayer is a senior consultant at Evans Consulting who is dedicated to a human-centered approach to finding innovative and transformative solutions that align people, process and technology. Previously, Kaithlyn spent 15 years in higher education in various roles in human resources, faculty affairs, teaching and learning and business management analysis. In addition to earning her SHRM-CP credential, Kaithlyn has her master's from George Washington University in Washington, D.C. and her BA from Salve Regina University in Newport, Rhode Island.
In her downtime, Kaithlyn could be found visiting museums, reading, running, slowly she says, and playing tour guide to friends, family, and occasionally inquisitive tourists around the D.C. area. We are extremely excited about today's conversation. With that, Career Compass would like to warmly welcome Kaithlyn Kayer.
Kaithlyn Kayer:
Thank you so much for inviting me. It's my pleasure to join you all and share some insights.
Vernon Williams:
So, I'll kick things off. Like many people, your pathway to HR is not a straight line or was not a straight line. Tell us why you pursued a career in human resources.
Kaithlyn Kayer:
Well, yeah, my winding career path that led to HR actually started when I encountered a particularly excellent HR practitioner. I was working at George Washington as a special assistant to the vice provost of teaching and learning, and that job included what I would like to call HR adjacent activities, where I regularly collaborated with our division's HR manager, Suzanne.
Suzanne loved her job. She was passionate about advocating for her needs, she was clearly communicating the importance of HR's policies and practices, and it did not sound like red tape or roadblocks. We had a great working relationship and she actually recommended that I consider a career in HR.
It didn't bite immediately. I was a little nervous about that, but I did take a position to work in faculty affairs, which is roughly HR for faculty in a university. Why I thought that would be easier, I have absolutely no idea. But I did realize there how much I enjoyed the work and how interested I was in HR, so I was approached about an opportunity to join the HR team and I was ready to make the move. Small world, I got to work for Suzanne later.
Vernon Williams:
That makes a lot of sense, Kaithlyn. I'm really glad that even in the end, despite the kind of windy road that you described, you were able to kind of get to a point with your supervisor and take full advantage of not only the skills that you learned in the first job, but kind of transition that along the way.
Kevin Abbed:
Yeah, and that's really funny you mentioned that, is I have a friend who I went to college with and she graduated with a master's in accounting and finance and she is actually a licensed CPA. Even she just found an interest in what their HR department was doing, and she's currently taking a rotation in a recruiting role. So, it's just really interesting that you said that.
So as we mentioned in your introduction, you were an HR manager at GW. Could you tell us a little bit about that role and what it was like to work in HR for a university?
Kaithlyn Kayer:
Yeah, Kevin, I loved working for GW. When I was a manager there, we functioned a client partner model. So I reported centrally to university human resources, but I managed a portfolio of different client areas. So, I worked directly with clients in liaised with our Centers for Excellence, so HR recruitment, compensation, employer relations, learning and development, HRIS. Then over the course of my time in HR, I supported a lot of different areas, student affairs, athletics, enrollment management, and libraries. True to university form, all of those areas have changed names and titles several times, but the main functions are still there.
So, what I appreciated most about the work was the opportunity to learn the different client areas. I got to understand their needs, help them meet their goals, and the variety really made every day interesting, but I still had that basis of HR knowledge that I was bringing to them.
So one day I could be making a staffing strategy for mental health counselors in the student health center, later in the day I could be developing incentive model for NCAA coaches and topping off my day with supporting healthy professional environments with the residential life staff who not only work together and play together, but live together on campus and make every day very, very interesting. So it was really great to work with them, but definitely a variety of tasks. It was always very busy, but it's very rewarding job.
Kevin Abbed:
Yeah, definitely doesn't sound like the humdrum day-to-day no data entry or anything. You're constantly moving and doing different things, which is awesome.
Kaithlyn Kayer:
Yeah, I really loved it.
Vernon Williams:
That's exactly why I felt like Kaithlyn would be the perfect person to have for this topic. Obviously you had your supervisor that you had to report to, and clearly you were liaison with different departments throughout the university and managing just multiple relationships. How were you able to remain effective in your job while responding to the various demands?
Kaithlyn Kayer:
Well, I like to hope I always did, but it was always a challenge.
Vernon Williams:
You were great, you were absolutely wonderful.
Kaithlyn Kayer:
Well, I appreciate that so much. It was really always trying to maintain the right balance. I was lucky in that I had clients that valued and engaged HR. I had a seat at the table with my leaders, which was very important for my success, but also it was challenging, because they wanted HR at the table all the time and were using HR often.
Each area had its own priorities and their proverbial fires that they needed to put out, and all of them are mission critical. I'm just one person no matter how much I want to clone myself, so I relied a lot on relationship building, communication and expectation setting. I've had to work with leaders to identify priorities, and I often had to have tough conversations where I gently reminded them, I hope it was gentle, that if everything is a priority, nothing actually is.
I really had to try my best to over-communicate, even though I don't think it's possible to over-communicate. If something was potentially going to be delayed, I had to let them know as soon as possible. I gave heads-up all the time for upcoming events and initiatives, like, "Hey, mid-year performance reviews are going to be due soon. Everybody clear your calendar, you need some time." I'm sure I've dropped the ball more than once or twice, but overall I think it worked pretty well for me, and I think my clients would say the same. I'm getting a positive review from Vernon, so I like that.
Vernon Williams:
Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I love that if everything is a priority, then nothing is a priority. That's something I often say, and then I try to give the example of kind of the Word document. If you bold face the entire text, nothing stands out, right? It all just looks the same, just a little bit darker. So I love that you were able to communicate that to the various stakeholders, that's critical.
Kevin Abbed:
Yeah, one thing I like is your role just sounds like a multi-tool. You're working with a ton of different departments and you're getting a ton of visibility throughout the organization, in your case, the university. Could you talk to us a little bit about the difference in communication styles that require to talk with CHROs, down to individual contributors?
Kaithlyn Kayer:
Of course. Well, the first priority of communication I think they say is identifying your audience, so have to do that, and then understanding what information they're looking for and really what's motivating them. So when I'm working with clients, I'll always listen and then try to provide some options and solutions, no matter what level they are in an organization. But with clients, I'm always going to try to budget that extra time to listen and learn more about what's going on in their day-to-day, because that'll help me better anticipate needs and remind the client that I'm there to help them, and so I become accessible.
If I'm in front of a CHRO or someone in that executive level, I'm typically asking them to make a decision or provide guidance. So I'm presenting very clear and concise data, making them aware of all of the major risks and opportunities that they could encounter with the decisions I'm asking them to make. Then I bring in my direct ask, I want no room for ambiguity. I likely provide most of the information prior to the meeting too. I am a huge proponent of no surprises for my supervisory chain. I never let surprises happen if I can help it.
Kevin Abbed:
So when working with CHROs, one thing that you mentioned that stood out to me is the type of information that you give to them, it's going to be different from what you provide to an individual contributor. You want the high-level 10,000 foot view of something and not getting into the minutia, because like you said, there are important decisions that need to be made and not a lot of time for ambiguity. Do you have an example of a time when you disagreed with a decision that was made and how you navigated that landscape?
Kaithlyn Kayer:
No, I really can't recall ever disagreeing with a decision a client made. For the record, that is my answer. No, I mean, in a client partner model, you're advocating for both your clients and for HR, and so finding that proper alignment between the two is sometimes like walking a tight rope. Not in a scary way, but just more of a skill you really need to have to be successful. But you asked for an example, so I'll do my best.
So, I've managed a lot of reorganizations with senior leaders and on occasion I've questioned whether the structure they've landed on is the optimal structure. So in those situations where I do feel like it's a little bit of a disagreement, I start by giving my supervisor a heads-up. Remember my no surprises rule, no surprises.
I brief my supervisor on the scenario, give them my concerns, I ask for advice. If I have their backing, then I gather additional information for the client. I go to my Centers of Excellence, ask for them for information, I do research on my own, do some benchmarking. I've got to make sure I've done my due diligence, and so then I can go to the client and provide those additional options.
So then even after I've made the best case in the world, it's not unheard of for the leader to decide to stay with their own plan. They are the expert in the field, and I need to always remember that, this is their business. I know my business and I need to know about their business, but they are the leader for a reason.
So at that point, as long as there was no major legal or compliance issue, I move forward with the original plan. I'm a strong advocate for the client's wishes with the Centers of Excellence and to move this through any type of leadership chain it needs to, because at that point I am the advocate for the client. So even if it wasn't the idea I was hoping they would go with, I still have to own it like it's my own.
As a client partner, I was rarely, if ever, the decision-maker. I'm an advocate, a resource, a liaison, a thought partner so I could voice my opinions and provide recommendations, but the decision typically lies somewhere else, and that was really okay.
Kevin Abbed:
Yeah, you mentioned just having the ability to go with a decision, even if it wasn't yours or you didn't agree with and still putting 100% effort into it, because like you said, it is a team atmosphere and not everything's going to go your way, but you still have to give it your all.
Vernon Williams:
What I love in there was the due diligence part, and the athlete in me is kind of back to the practice, practice, is making sure that you've done your homework. I so am with you on that Kaithlyn, because you cannot stress that enough, especially when it comes to decision-making and being able to potentially convince somebody of a different idea.
Doing your homework ahead of time just gives you so much more of a confidence when you walk in to talk about the things that you need to talk about, to again, hopefully encourage somebody to potentially see something different. But even if you haven't, you're making kind of informed choices, you're speaking with more confidence in the way that you're describing the task at hand. I can't stress that enough, so I love what you were talking about there.
Let's shift to communication with peers. How do you seek advice or perhaps even collaboration without simply just talking gossip around the water cooler?
Kaithlyn Kayer:
That's a really great question, Vernon. It's a challenge, a balancing act, all of those things that I've already said, which I feel like are always clear with HR, but even in a large organization like a university like GW, it was still a small and connected community. News and gossip travels so, so quickly, and as an HR professional you need to make sure that you're not a part of that and that you stay above it to the best of your ability.
So as a professional and growing learning in my career, it was so important for me to be able to leverage my colleagues and brainstorm, bounce ideas off of them, commiserate about tough days and difficult conversations, but you're always having to find that balance of should I be sharing this information? Am I putting people at risk? Am I breaking confidentiality?
Obviously if there's even a question mark in your mind, you can't share that, and so you just have to preserve that and move forward. But I was lucky enough to have a close-knit team and supervisor that I worked with that we could share most things, but still had to be aware of the relationships and connections that might put my colleagues or my clients in an awkward situation or compromise any of the trust they built with either of them. It was really a it depends situation, and I hate that answer, but it really did become that a lot.
Vernon Williams:
Yeah, I won't ask you to share any of the juicy details and whatnot, but thank you for that response, I think it was spot on.
Kevin Abbed:
So, I guess I just have one last question for you. With everything you've learned, what advice would you tell your younger self?
Kaithlyn Kayer:
No regrets, play like a champion. Just kidding.
Vernon Williams:
You're talking to two sports people, so you know we love it.
Kevin Abbed:
Yeah, you're speaking my language.
Kaithlyn Kayer:
But really, you talked about my winding road to HR in the beginning and it really struck me, and I think that that has provided me a really important lens through how I do my job and how I've been successful. So I don't think I could go back and say, "Hey, maybe don't take this particular job," or, "Hey, maybe go straight to HR, skip this other opportunity, because you love HR and that's what you love to do." I think what I'd do is tell myself to be more confident, speak up more often, take a breath and to celebrate successes with my peers and clients.
I think one of the traps that I've fallen into, and I think a lot of my HR professional colleagues have fallen into is getting caught up in the rush and actions of transactions and strategizing, but not taking time to acknowledge and celebrate a job well done. So I think I would tell myself to do that more, to which my younger self would probably not listen and still do what I did anyway, but I try. I try my best.
Vernon Williams:
Kaithlyn, thank you so much for taking the time to share how we can all maximize our time and our relationship with our coworkers at all levels.
Kaithlyn Kayer:
Thanks so much for having me, this is fun.
Kevin Abbed:
Yeah, thank you so much. With that, we're going to bring this episode of Career Compass to a close. We'd like to thank SHRM and the SHRM Foundation for providing us with this platform, but more importantly, we'd like to thank all of you for joining us and we hope you stay with us throughout the season as we discuss more topics like this episode.
Vernon Williams:
For more exclusive content, resources and tools to help you succeed in your career, consider joining SHRM as a student member. You can visit us@shrm.org/students to learn more about being a part of a community of over 300,000 HR and business leaders who impact the lives of over 115 million employees worldwide.
Kevin Abbed:
If you like what you heard, we'd love your subscription. You can find us on Apple Podcast, Spotify, Stitcher, Google Play, really wherever you listen to podcasts. Do you have a topic you think we should cover or a guest we should hear from? We'd love to hear it. Please email us at careercompasspodcast@shrm.org.
Vernon Williams:
Lastly, are you looking for more work and career-related podcasts? Check out All Things Work and Honest HR at shrm.org/podcast. Thank you again for listening and we'll catch you on the next episode of Career Compass.