In this episode of SHRM's Career Compass, join hosts Vernon Williams and Erica Young, alongside special guest Jes Osrow, the co-founder and DEI specialist at The Rise Journey and Head of Learning and Organizational Development at Quartet Health as they discuss why, “Now More Than Ever”, HR is playing a vital role in developing a people centered strategy that leads to organizational success.
The distinction between home and work life continue to intersect due to a myriad of societal factors. Employees are bringing their whole selves to the workplace and asking companies a to meet many of their needs. In this episode of SHRM's Career Compass, join hosts Vernon Williams and Erica Young, alongside special guest Jes Osrow, the co-founder and DEI specialist at The Rise Journey and Head of Learning and Organizational Development at Quartet Health as they discuss why, “Now More Than Ever”, HR is playing a vital role in developing a people centered strategy that leads to organizational success.
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Vernon Williams:
Welcome back to Career Compass, a podcast from SHRM, the Society for Human Resource Management, and the SHRM Foundation. Career Compass prepares future leaders today for better workplaces tomorrow.
Erica Young:
As the voice of all things work, SHRM supports students and emerging professionals with advice, information, and resources for every step of your career.
Vernon Williams:
Designed for the student or emerging professional, Career Compass delivers timely, relevant, and critical conversations about work to help succeed in your career journey. I'm Vernon Williams, and I want to thank you for joining us for this episode.
Erica Young:
And I'm Erica Young. During this episode, we're going to talk with the co-founder and DEI specialist at the Rise Journey and Head of Learning and Organizational Development at Quartet Health. We'll chat with her about how now more than ever, HR plays a vital role in developing people centered strategies that lead to both organizational and employee success.
Vernon Williams:
With that being said, let's get started. Erica, I don't know about you, but I'm excited about today's discussion. We get to dive into some really big real world issues and talk through how HR employees are legitimately capable of changing the world. If you ask my three-year-old son what daddy does for a living, he'll tell you and I quote, "Make the world a better place." And today we're going to get to touch on a lot of that. So what are some of your thoughts about today's show and how things kind of are playing out in the world?
Erica Young:
I'm pretty excited as well. I think it is a big topic certainly now more than ever. So dramatic, but so true. A lot is changing right now. And truly now more than ever, we're seeing a spotlight on HR, on people and talent professionals I think in a way that we just haven't seen before. Vernon, part of today's conversation is about the ability for employees to bring their whole selves to work. And when we say those words, I'm kind of curious, what do you think about what comes to mind?
Vernon Williams:
There's a ton of stuff that comes to mind. I know we started talking a little bit about this kind of in our pre-discussion chat, but really for me as an individual, it's about the fact that I'm a father, I am an athlete, I'm obviously an employee, I'm African American male. And so there's a lot that comes with that, but I specifically want to kind of drill down on that kind of fatherhood piece, particularly as we think about for many of us what it's like to be returning to work. So for me, and as an employee at SHRM, we were fortunate enough to be at home kind of until beginning of March or so. And at that point, folks had to return. I was really nervous because my son is not back in daycare. And what does all of that sort of look like? And so I was telling my dad. My dad is probably not the person you go to if you're trying to vent, but I was going to my dad and I was like, "Dad, I can't believe I'm being told I have to come back to the workplace. What about my son?" And his kind of response was like, "Hell yeah. You need to be back in the workplace. It's not your employer's problem."
So I kind of was like, "Okay." I finished the conversation up with him. And then fortunately, I was able to extend that a little bit longer. I think SHRM was able to work out an agreement with me that we were able to do kind of like ... in the office for a week, out of the office for a week sort of thing so I could still see my family, but all of those elements are things that HR professionals are dealing with and things that, I guess in this example, my dad, being from a different generation, probably is not considering that. We've got everything on that spectrum from, in my case again, family support and what that looks like to my dad who's like, "Not the employer's problem." And that's all got to be navigated and managed in the workplace now. So that's really what I'm excited about talking through in just one. And I know there's so many more things that we're going to get to with today's guest that is part of the workplace now.
Erica Young:
Absolutely. I think that's a really good example. And as you were chatting and sharing your story, which ... Thank you for sharing that story. I think that's really relevant for a lot of people, myself included, I was also thinking about what for me does showing up to work authentically and safely look like. And I will say that now more than ever ... I wonder how many times we can use that phrase on the show today. I will say that now more than ever is unique for a lot of reasons. I've talked before especially during the mental health episode that I do struggle day to day with anxiety. And in addition to that, I have ... I also have struggled with some like kind of ADHD type symptoms.
Between the two, it does make work challenging most days and it was challenging even before the pandemic. More recently thinking about what it looks like in a workplace where there's some fear about general safety with COVID 19 in the workplace and then also just kind of generally being concerned of how things are changing for business, how things are changing for people, both myself and the people that are in my life, it's just a lot. It really is. It's a lot now ... truly now more than ever. But I think that's why we're focused on it this episode. Is to explore what the unique challenges and positives even if we could say of now is especially with that HR lens.
So with that, I do want to transition to our awesome guest who I know has a lot of great thoughts about how HR professionals are contributing to a better world. So I'm thrilled to introduce Jes Osrow. She's the co-founder and DEI specialist at the Rise Journey and Head of Learning and Development at Quartet Health. Jes is known as someone who gets stuff done and has the energy of four people excited. As head of learning and organizational development at Quartet Health, Jes empowers organizational culture to be inclusive, diverse, and promote equity for all employees. And then as the co-founder of the Rise Journey, she works with organizations to create empowering organizational culture through equitable HR practices built on the foundation of diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging, and accessibility, which we're going to probably hear abbreviated on this episode as DEIBA, just a heads up to everyone.
Jes puts theoretical people ideas into scalable best practices. Whew. And in addition to being SHRM SCP-certified, Jes also earned an advanced diploma in managing workplace diversity and inclusion from New York University and her bachelor of arts degree in theater and arts from McDaniel College. Jes, we are so excited you can join us, so excited to hear your thoughts. Thank you for being here today.
Jes Osrow:
Thank you for having me. I'm so excited. And just based on what you've two have mentioned so far, there's already so much to dig into.
Erica Young:
There really is.
Vernon Williams:
Quite the intro. But to kind of kick us off, I think it would be helpful for some of our listeners to hear a little bit more about your career pathways and your journey from a BA in theater, arts management to several positions of human resources, to the work that you now do with inclusion. So can you tell us a little bit more about how you arrived at this point and why you're so passionate about this work?
Jes Osrow:
Yeah. So when I started in college, all of my mom's friends asked her, "Why would you dare let your daughter get a degree in theater arts? She's never going to be able to do anything with that." I always laugh at that and has stuck with me because my foundation in technical theater ... I'm not an actress. You can't get me on stage. I hate public speaking. I do it occasionally, but my background in technical theater has actually led to, I would say, the majority of my successes in HR. It's a foundation of people management, of time management. If you've ever had to deal with an actor with a misplaced prop, you know what I'm talking about. You have to deal with all the technical pieces and connecting the director to the costume designer, to the sound guy, or girl, or person. You are the hub of everything that's happening, and that's how I view HR.
And in terms of getting here, I actually started my kind of first real world job in New York City as an executive assistant to the CFO of a sports tech startup. And we got along great and built trust really quickly. And one day he said, "Hey, I want you to run payroll. Here's everybody's Social Security Numbers and all the payroll information." And gave me the login information and said, "Have at it. I expect you to run this every two weeks." And I said, "Oh, crap. What? I'm 23. Don't give anybody's Social Security Number." And from there, it really developed.
Once I had everybody's information in the palm of my hand, so to speak, I was really able to see and dig into what was actually happening. Where were there inequities or not inequities, what was happening in the offer letters that would go out? And why were there differences? What were the nuances? I was able to start an intern program there and had 125 interns over nine months, just bonkers, when I think about it now.
Erica Young:
Awesome.
Jes Osrow:
And the fact that I was doing diverse hiring practices to recruit underrepresented talent without knowing what I was doing because I went in and said, "Sports affect everybody. We need to have all viewpoints in our internship group." And so thinking back on those things and reflecting back on those pieces, somebody trusted me with a whole bunch of really personal information and. I'm a very no BS, no-nonsense kind of person. And so I dove in and said like, "What the hell is going on? What the heck is going on? Why aren't things done a certain way? And in my mind, the proper way, in the equitable way, and how do I change that? And every job sense I've stuck with HR because it can have so much impact because whether it's a singular person or through consulting, a number of different organizations, the impact you have is life changing. And Vernon, thinking back to your work with HR and getting some flexible leave and flexible work schedules, what was the impact on you? And I think about what was the impact to your family, to your son? Amplify that by ever however many employees SHRM has. And then thinking about on a global scale, what does this look like when we look at the policies on a broader scale? But I can relate all of that directly back to my technical theater background.
Erica Young:
I love it. I love when seemingly totally separate experiences end up actually being the greatest experience or stepping stone of experience to the next opportunity. And I also have, I would call, a non-linear background. And I totally believe that it's one of my greatest assets actually, to be able to pull from very unique experiences. But it's interesting that you mentioned actually like 23, probably very soon out of college, and you're handed here to run payroll. We actually hear that so much. And I would say more so probably 10 or so years ago before HR really became I think the career path that it is today, we heard a lot of people kind of just fell into HR related roles. And payroll is a great example of how people were kind of assigned this new sort of HR specific role.
I would say of course even just 10 years ago, businesses probably didn't value HR to the degree that they do today. So we've seen a lot of growth in the HR industry, even just in how we talk about it. HR, I think used to, and to some extent today, it still is called a cost center versus a revenue producer, revenue generating department. But I'm curious to get your thoughts because it sounds like you started there. You started where like HR was kind of just known as like running payroll, doing comp benefits, and now it's turned into something much bigger I think. I'd love to get your thoughts on what that progression has looked like for you.
Jes Osrow:
Totally. So I'll go back to that first job. It was my first formal job out of college, my first full-time role. I remember going to the CFO who is to date actually one of my favorite bosses still, and I said, "Alex, I want to start an intern program." And he said, "Why? I don't want to pay a bunch of newbies to do anything. I'm a CFO."
And I said, "Well, let's think of it this way. If we pay 10 interns, $15 an hour, eight hours a week, that's what the cost is. And I suggest that we pay them also for their ... we give them a stipend for their Metro pass because this was in New York City and we give them a two lunch ... so $30, $15 a day for two lunches because that's when we gave benefits for the team for lunches." And I said, "We're going to get X, Y, and Z out of productivity." And I actually went through each of the teams that had requested an intern, if I was to do this, and went through and talked about how much productivity we were going to have. And by removing some of this lower level work from some of our paid employees who are paid 50, 60, $70,000 a year, they were getting bogged down in this lower work. And so what did it look like for these employees to have the bandwidth to do this much higher tier work and have this other work trusted in somebody in their team, somebody they could mentor."
So I built out the financial model, which ended up saving us probably about five or six full-time employees who we would be paying benefits to, who we would be paying additional support to, who we'd do parental leave for for just having three months worth of summer interns, which we ended up actually hiring 32% of our intern class once they graduated from college.
So also it saved us a ton of money and a ton of time on recruitment. As I was an HR team of one, I was also a recruitment team of one. And so for me, being able to just call upon those individuals who we had spent three months of training, and development, and mentorship, it became a cost savings. And so that specific cost center cost savings or revenue producer, I battle all the time. And I always think about if somebody ... the average, I would say, employee in New York City in a startup is making a $100,000 a year. No benefits. Just based salary. The average millennial leaves a company after a year, a year and a half, and I'm generalizing here. So work with me. If it takes approximately 50% of somebody's salary, upwards of 100% depending on their role, to rehire retrain and get somebody in that space. When you think about attrition numbers, if you're able to retain that employee for an extra year, you're saving $100,000 in recruitment costs. If you're able to save five employees, 500,000.
So when you start doing the math in terms of what are you investing in learning and development, what are you investing in DEI? How are you investing in HR and the core competencies HR folks need? What are you saving on the other end? And ultimately the biggest number to talk about is attrition and retention. And when you do that math, which is honestly especially executives don't often think of it that way. They think about the spend you're using. But when you look at the savings, because it happens long term, you don't realize that you have to spend $100,000 to replace somebody until they leave. And you're like, "Oh, crap. That person left with two years of institutional knowledge." What is institutional knowledge worth, especially in really specific roles?
So I would say if anything, HR, the biggest change, and I hope it continues to change and evolve, is HR needs to be part of strategy from day one. Your first hire should be an HR person. I don't care if they're just at college or super advanced, depending on how you want to scale your organization, HR has to be in the strategy in the foundation from day one. If they are not in those strategic conversations, your organization is going to lose time and time again because your HR folks are going to switch because they don't feel valued, you're going to lose employees and retention issues are going to be a pain in the butt. You're going to have Glassdoor reviews that are going to be awful. And if you look at any of those three, two, one star companies, those reviews are tough to stomach and really tough to change. And so when you think about HRS strategy, you also have to think about brand. It's intrinsically linked with brand. And more than ever, when we're in this Instagram culture that we live in, brand is intrinsically tied with everything. So bringing it back to basics, HR has to be a part of strategy from day one just like anybody else in operations, or business, or any of the other fields. HR has to be involved.
Vernon Williams:
So many great points there, Jes. And one of the things that we often say in SHRM is, with no money, there's no mission. And so to have HR folks in at the beginning, and as you said, kind of to helping with the strategy makes all the difference in the world. And I think the way that you are able to articulate to your supervisor, how this financially makes sense is what I think ... Not just HR professional, but people in general, when they're trying to make business decisions or convince usually their managers or higher ups of how they should proceed is often a really, really great way to go with things. So many good things there. I do want to shift gears just a little bit. And as you mentioned before kind of with impact and the impact that HR professionals can have on a specific employee. And I love that you used me as an example because you're right. It did make a huge difference in my world to get to spend an extra couple of weeks at home with my son and still being able to kind of be a part of his day-to-day life and so many other things that over the last year, year and a half because 2020 was a year for all years with so much stuff going on.
So I kind of want to talk a little bit about those societal influences and things that impacted the workplace, including racial injustice. We had an election, so divisive politics, income inequality, and obviously the pandemic, which I'm really, really hoping, fingers crossed, that we're starting to see the end of with some of the vaccines and some of the health things that are out right now. But the list could go on for days and days of all of the things that are impacting the workplace. And so I really want to talk about how things have changed over the past few years, specifically on the employer side. And things that the employers are doing now to make sure that they notice the employee's needs that previously probably went unseen. I think that employers were not necessarily paying attention to five, 10, maybe 15 years ago.
Jes Osrow:
Yeah. 2020 was a year. And I think honestly for HR at the outcome of it is going to be really positive because it's ultimately going to lead to a better workplace for individuals. And I do a lot of work around accessibility. And Erica, I appreciate you sharing your story with anxiety and ADHD. I do a lot of work around invisible disabilities specific to the workplace. And so I do a lot of talking around accessibility. And accessibility, not as it relates to disability, but accessibility as in Erica, Vernon and myself, we all work differently. In order to do our best work, we all need different environments, we all need different supports, different mentors, different managers. And so when you think about accessibility, thinking about it as what does everybody need to do their best work? And I think that's the crux of what employers are starting to see and starting to make changes for is around what do my employees need to do their best work? And there's some changes. And depending on when this episode airs, Basecamp, for example, just came out and talking about politics and society in the workplace. And frankly, there isn't a way to untie the two. Society, and culture, and the workplace are intrinsically linked for the rest of time.
Especially now that we are in our homes, those who are fortunate enough and have enough privilege to work from home, for those with that privilege, I am here and I live next door to my mother and I'm here with my boyfriend and we have our cats, and I have the side hustle work, and I have my full-time work, and I have chores and I have things I have to do. My entire life is here in the 700 square foot apartment. And it's tied to my computer and it's tied to my cell phone. And if I get a Slack message from work at 8:00 PM and I'm on my computer for personal reasons, I'm probably got to answer it because I'm on. I don't think about it as, "Oh, well this is work hours." Versus not work hours. So it's completely changed our entire environment again for those who are privileged enough to be able to work from home. And so you can't you can't put the tooth space back in the tube. It's out. It's here.
So now the progressive employers, and I think the direction in which strategic employers, when it comes to HR, are going to go, is saying, "Okay. Let's look at accessibility. Now that our employees are everywhere doing everything for all the reasons, how can we make sure that productivity doesn't fall? How can we make sure that ..." Because a lot of employers are actually saying their employees are more productive because they're just on, on, on, I don't have to commute anymore, I immediately brush my teeth and hop on my computer. I had a 45 minute commute if not longer in New York. So how can I make sure that things are accessible in order to get the best work out of my employees in a way that doesn't promote burnout so I retain them? Because talent is at a premium right now everywhere. And so people are being recruited left and right. Attrition is always going to be an issue. But right now individuals are leaving employers who aren't being strategic. They're saying, "I need an employer who sees me not sees work me."
Vernon, you mentioned bringing your full self to work. Bringing your full self to work, bringing your Black self, versus your male self, versus your father self, versus your whatever age you are self, those are many facets. Those are a lot of intersectional pieces. And those different selves need different elements of accessibility. And if an employer can't accommodate ... not only accommodate that, but proactively say, "What can I do to support you?" People are going to leave.
Erica Young:
I love so many things that you just said. I have so many notes to follow up on. I really love what you said about the difference between talking about disability versus ability. And you had kind of pointed to invisible disabilities. I would really love to see this conversation around diversity and inclusion start to make its way into talking about how oftentimes things that we consider negatives that people have, like "disability" or negatives related to ... sometimes employers will consider parenthood a negative because they have to share their time with work and their children. I would love to see us change just totally, flip the script on how we talk about this. And instead of calling them these disabilities or these things that take them away from work, what are we gaining by having people who have these experiences? What are we gaining by having people who have anxiety or ADHD, in my case, or who are parents? To your point earlier, Jes, where you had said it's a unique benefit in my viewpoint for organizations to have more people that have a variety of ways that they do bring themselves to work. And then I think the next step, as you mentioned, is okay, now that we have diverse people coming from all these diverse backgrounds, no matter what that looks like, also in terms of, I think accounting for income level and education level.
We've talked about people who have been previously incarcerated and the unique value that they bring and so on and so forth, really flipping, like I said, the script on figuring out where their unique value truly lays. The other point I want to follow up on is your example of base camp. And I was about to bring that up kind of segueing into this conversation around HR's role in addressing these workplace challenges. And just for the audience, in case you haven't heard, an organization called Basecamp, they're co-founders, there's two founders, they came out with sort of like a open blog post to their employees last week and essentially said ... They announced a couple of organizational changes, but the really big one that people are pretty upset about, and I think rightly so. And I'm curious to get your thoughts here more in depth, Jes, they basically said that any controversial topics, including politics, conversations about anything challenging or controversial and political cannot be done through company communications. So they basically said, "This is divisive. This is harmful. And we don't believe in it. And you can't have these discussions at work." And a lot of people of course came out saying, "Wow."
Jes Osrow:
As of 7:00 PM on May 3rd, 40% of their workforce has quit. And openly quit on Twitter and sharing that they're looking for new roles.
Erica Young:
Wow.
Vernon Williams:
Wow.
Jes Osrow:
The company, they have like 58 people. 40% is big no matter what you do, but with 58 people that makes an impact.
Erica Young:
I think another really interesting part of this story ... And I'm going to transition. Thank you for noting that, Jes. But another interesting part of this story is they said in that blog post too that it was just the co-founders who made these decisions. They didn't say whether they consulted HR or not. Maybe they did, but also they're the co-founders of the business. They did say though pretty explicitly that this is how the ... this was the direction that they wanted to take as a company. And so with that, Jes, I'd love to hear your thoughts in general about what is HR's role in influencing and protecting the workforce and the business, especially as it pertains to these very difficult conversations.
Jes Osrow:
So I think just like everything in our society, we have to go back to how it was built. What is the system built on? And the system was built for old white dudes. Think of the TV show, Mad Men. The systemic pieces are built for old white dudes. And I've got some great old white dudes in my life. So no shade to them, but when a system is built for one type, able-bodied, cisgendered white man between the ages of 23 and 63, you're leaving out a lot of people. And when founders seemingly unilaterally, whether they did or not make decisions, it's playing directly into the system that benefits them. As you were talking, I said, "What isn't political these days?" Literally what isn't political? What isn't societal? How do you not remove Black Lives Matter from any conversation about systemic racism or systemic anything? And that becomes political. And this is the other thing about any workforce, the second you say no, everybody's going to do it. Vernon, I would love to know. When you tell your three year old, "No. You can't do it." I'm assuming the first thing he wants to do is do whatever you said no to.
Vernon Williams:
Of course.
Jes Osrow:
We're all still have that element.
Vernon Williams:
Followed by a why.
Jes Osrow:
Exactly. And what was the reasoning? What was the impact that the so-called issue is having? That's where I want to always start. Is what is the impact? And frankly, they should have done a focus group. They should have taken a group of employees and say, "If we were to change this, what would this look like?" Something like that should come from the employees. The employee should say, "Hey, actually as a group, we were getting into a lot of issues. We did trainings and we did all of these things to be proactive about it and we still couldn't come to resolution. And so we have decided as a collective, that Basecamp is no longer going to allow for political conversations as defined by as SX ..." Because you have to put a definition behind it. "That we're no longer going to do going to do this so that we have a common collective workplace." I don't know. But that's not reality. Reality is we are immersed in it. It is in, again, our hands and our phones, in the mouths of our children. It is on the murders that are happening and the genocides that are happening. It is the shortages of vaccines in India.
You can't tell people, they can't converse, let alone in a workplace where they're spending a third of their lives. And HR's should be updated role is to protect ... to find the balance of protecting the individuals while still moving forward with the best practices and the best reasoning for the business. And oftentimes when you truly look at the issue, what's best for the employee is very frequently best for the business. It's just a matter of how you process the.
Erica Young:
Absolutely. Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Jes Osrow:
Ultimately, if you bring in HR at the beginning, HR is going to help you succeed financially because it is a cost center, but it also is a saving center if you do it right and if you're strategic about it. And these founders consistently are screwing themselves over by not bringing HR in early and often. And I always say I'm biased because I run The Rise Journey and it is a consultancy. If you don't know what you're doing or if your HR person doesn't have expertise, bring in outside council. Bring in somebody who can say, "Actually this is a really good way forward." Or, "Here's three options. Here's the pros and cons of each." Because it is worth that financial investment to make sure you're doing it correctly. And if you're not doing correctly and especially the founders and especially the white founders own it, make space for the error you made, talk about it, and move on. And say, "We're moving on and this is how we're pivoting." There is nothing wrong with having an error or a misjudgment. As long as you acknowledge it, you recognize the impact regardless of your intent and you have to move forward.
Vernon Williams:
So I'm so glad that we have the opportunity to kind of start to define many of these issues and challenges. And I say start because any one of these topics we could probably spend-
Jes Osrow:
Years on.
Vernon Williams:
Yeah. Entire series on, let alone an episode. Like an entire series we could probably spend on any one of these topics. And so I'm glad we start to get to define some of those challenges because then we can kind of shift because usually challenges could also be considered as opportunities.
Jes Osrow:
Totally.
Vernon Williams:
And that's kind of where I want to go with things now, and specifically our podcast which is geared towards students and emerging professionals. And when we think about those, again, challenges or opportunities that we just discussed, Jes, can you tell us a little bit why now, more than ever, is the ideal time for emerging professionals and students to transition or start a career in human resources? Why is now just that critical time period that they can really branch out and do something maybe a little bit different and make the world a better place?
Jes Osrow:
I love that. I'm over here smiling, big grin on my face because there is change going on in the world. It is not happening fast enough, it's not systemic enough yet, but business happens fast. We live in a capital society that money runs the world regardless if we like it or not. If you want to make impact, HR is the best place to make impact, nonprofit, for-profit, big or small. If you want to impact people, if you want to change lives, you work in HR. And this is part of the evolution of HR as I've seen it in the last 15 years and again, happening at a more rapid pace. Black Lives Matter has ignited, not only a fire around systemic racism and other issues in society, but has let a fire under the butt of HR folks in a great way. Not all can see it right now, but there's tremendous opportunity.
I would say anybody who is in interest in making the lives of people better from a policy, from a systemic in a small way growing in a bigger way, get into HR, get into people ops. And you don't have to study it in school if you don't want to. I would say go out and get ... do a certificate program. I'm not going to name any organizations, but there's a ton of certificate programs out there. Ask your current employer to invest in you if you're employed and want to switch. Get mentors in this space. Start talking about things, start your thought leadership because HR is changing. And there are some pieces. Payroll, and compensation, and benefits do need some hardcore very specific HR pieces, but people ops ... And it's transitioning from HR to people ops to make a sexier title, is about people, and it's about listening, and it's about being the HR business partner, and it's about digging in and building equity. And if you want to build equity within an organization, you got to do it from HR. If you're want to build systemic positive change, you have to do it from HR. If you want to hear people's problems and learn about what they're going through and really understand, you should do it through HR, at least if HR is done well.
There is so much possibility. And when I see my HR professionals, I see a hell of a lot of white women, myself included. Again, a homogenous group. If you are a person of color, if you identify not as a woman and you want to get in HR, go for it. Now is the time. Get your voices heard and get the voices of the people, and the elements, and the intersectionality that you represent. Get those voices heard, more importantly. I have my perspective. I'm always going to have bias and I'm always going to have blinders on for some things.
Even though I'm aware and talking about this all the time, it doesn't eliminate my bias. Get in there. Tell me how I'm right. Tell me how I'm wrong. Tell me how you want to create change and partner with me. That is so valuable. I am never going to know the perspective of you, Vernon, as a black man. Come and talk to me about it. Let's make change together. And I would say, if you want to make change faster, start with startups, start with smaller organizations where you can get in and dig in, but also recognize that not all organizations are ready for that change. And when you're interviewing, and this is why I think there's a tremendous amount of power in interviewing, especially for young professionals, is you hold so much power in your hands that you don't necessarily know yet. And that would be advice I would give to myself 10 years ago. Is there's so much power in that energy, and that want, and that drive that an employer is lucky to have you when you are fully committed and you are there. So own that. Don't take ego in. Be humble about it, make sure you're talking a good game and making about action and strategy and financial figures and all of those pieces, but there is power in what you want to be doing and the impact you're going to have and the perspectives you bring. Don't ever doubt that.
Erica Young:
Wow. That was beautiful. Actually that is a wonderful segue into a question that I wanted to ask you just about what personality traits, or skills, or characteristics you think awesome HR professionals need to have. One of the things that we have talked a lot about on this show is the power in some formal education and various certificates or certification programs and the like, but I think that there also coming from a kind of learning and development background. I think there's a lot of power in those soft skills or in those "soft qualities" which I hate calling them that, but that's okay.
Jes Osrow:
Me too.
Erica Young:
Yeah. I'm sure you do. We'll call them power skills. That's usually what I go with. Because they are. They're incredibly powerful skills to have in the workplace and can give a lot of power to ourselves. So anyway, circling back, what are some personality traits or power skills that you think HR professionals should have in order to be more successful?
Jes Osrow:
So I'm going to take this back a step first. When I was 16, I was fortunate enough to move to the island of Grenada in the Caribbean. My mom was a college professor. She wanted to take a sabbatical and we went to the island in the Caribbean that had fresh water that we could drink. That was the big priority. I was 16. I was a little bit rebellious. I was homeschooling myself. Very frustrated with my mother because I was 16. And so I spent a lot of time doing whatever I wanted as part of my education and whatever and friends I made. The big thing there for me was we were the only white family living on the island. We were the only white people on the island who didn't come from cruise boats. We were the only white folks who were doing everything from taking the local buses.
People were pointing fingers at me, people wanted to touch my skin, people were talking about me. People knew us all over the island. They would see us and they'd be like, "Oh, you're the white family living over in the zone." We were known everywhere. We were celebrities. And at 16 it was really unnerving. And I was like, "I just want to live my own life. I want to do my own things. I want to get in trouble, but everybody here knows me." And it actually allowed my parents to keep a little bit an eye on me unknowingly at the time and it ended up being probably one of the most influential times in my life.
I wrote my college essay about my neighbor or my neighbors who were four-year-old twins who I felt an absolute love with and adore. I painted them endlessly and took endless photos of them because I was also an art major in college. It was just tremendously impactful. And when I went back to school in rural New Hampshire, where it is about as white Christian Catholic as you can possibly get and we do have heritage not hate flags hanging around here right now, which is frustrating for me. And I went back and I was able to see all of this privilege I had. I was able to see the education that I was so spiteful about, I was able to see ... I had a hot water. We took cold water showers the entire time I lived there. I had hot water, just like some really basic concept. The fact that I could write a college essay about my experiences, the fact that I had the ability to go, that my mother had the foresight, and the want, and the ability. It really changed my perspective on a lot of things in life.
Again, I directly attribute this to the work I do in DEI. I was the only. I got to experience being the only in a way that wasn't always pleasant and wasn't always fun. Sometimes it was great, other times it wasn't. And I didn't really know at the time what it meant. Reflecting back, I can see more. And when I think about being an HR professional and how it impacts me today and what I would advise and not necessarily personality traits or skills, but HR professionals need to bring themselves the good, the bad, the ugly, the everything in between the experiences. When I talk to my black employees, when I talk to the people who I work with, I feel like I'm more able to relate and I tell them why or why not. I also tell them that, "Holy hell. I've probably done a lot of microaggressions and not realized it because I also lived in this place and felt like I was Black sometimes when I am very much not." But I can reflect And I can think about these things because I had experiences.
So I would say for anybody, more so than a personality trait or something specific is have that EQ. Have the emotional intelligence to be able to reflect upon your history. Have the ability to reflect upon your education. What does it mean? What's an opinion versus a perspective that you've created or had? And how do you talk about that in an interview setting? Because ultimately, it is your perspectives and it is your experiences that are going to make you better at the profession, regardless of if you are the whitest white person, or the blackest Black person, or the most indigenous indigenous person, or whomever and anything, and all the isms and all the identifying markers that we can place upon ourselves. It's about how you speak about it, and how you talk about it, and how you relate to others who may or may not have those identifying markers. And part of that is those power skills, those soft skills, but really like EQ and empathy. The ability to have reflection. And listen to others when they're saying things that might not feel great in terms of feedback.
How you respond to feedback, especially in HR, is so key because nobody likes getting frustrating feedback or negative feedback. But if you can hear it and say, "I'm going to need a data process. Can I get back to you? And I will book time on your calendar in two days because I want to continue talking about this, but I need time to process." What does that look like versus reacting, and lashing out, and potentially damaging a relationship forever, which you cannot do in HR or at least you can't do well. So really thinking about like, who are you as an individual and how do you bring that to whomever you're interviewing with? How do you bring that to every interview? Even if you're not hired, how do you bring that to every potential employer? How do you affect the interviewer in the way you might affect potential employees? I think that a girl who came from rural New Hampshire, I grew up with pet sheep, and had a million rabbits, and [inaudible 00:41:44] with the sheep to go to a school and study theater and then end up in New York City because my mom kicked me out of my house in New Hampshire. Thanks, mom, for that one and moved in with a friend and lived on a friend's couch for three months.
I am extroverted beyond extroverted, I am no BS, I am whatever I am. That doesn't make me the best HR professional. That makes me an HR professional. My counterparts are more introverted and more introspective. That doesn't make them the best. It makes them an HR professional. It's not about a specific thing, but it's about knowing yourself enough and knowing that you constantly are evolving to know yourself more and how you bring that to the people you're serving the impact you want to have. If you can't know yourself and can't reflect with yourself on these issues, how are you expected to support others? And there is no one magic message or skill. It really is about people. And people are changing, the world is changing. How do you keep up? I would say if there's one skill, it's agility even more so than flexibility. How can you pivot? How can you take a problem and say, "Oh, that didn't work. Switching gears. Going over here. This is what didn't work, this is what did work. How do I shift?" And being able to shift and talk about it and have that agility, that's the one skill that everybody should work on for the future of work, for the future of HR. What's that agility that you have?
Vernon Williams:
I'm going to pause this just for a second, but to kind of build off of what you're talking about there just with skill development and professional development. And I want to make sure that our listeners are aware of a fantastic opportunity for SHRM's annual conference, which is in Las Vegas, Nevada. And I want to make sure I get these dates. The conference is going to take place September 9th through the 12th. Students can register either in person for an experience or virtual experience. There's a special rate just for students. $425 for the in person, $280 for the virtual experience. And just so you're all aware, if you are attending in person, my man, Chris Lopez, and I are planning the student experience. So you know that it's going to be on point. You certainly do not want to miss that. If you want more information, you can visit annual.shrm.org for that additional information or to register. So please, if you're looking for some of those professional development opportunities that Jes just talked about and so much more, annual is going to be off the chains. Make sure you are you're there or attending in person.
Jes Osrow:
And it's so important. Vernon, building on that, find the events that speak to you, find the people that speak to you, find the moments that speak to you and use them for all of their worth. Because not everything speaks for everybody and works for everybody, but finding those pieces and finding a mentor, finding a person, watch every Ted Talk at every speech they've ever done, go to these events, talk to them. We're not superstars, anybody. Whenever I speak, I'm always so flattered when somebody comes to talk to me afterwards because it means you want to learn more. And my guess is if you ask for them to be your mentor, two out of three times you're going to get a yes. But gaining those experiences, again, that's part of opening yourself up, is so vital for HR because you cannot stay stagnant. You have to keep learning, you have to keep evolving.
Vernon Williams:
And part of that learning does involve professional development credits.
Jes Osrow:
Yes.
Vernon Williams:
So I know some of our listeners are tuning in just for those professional development credits and for this fantastic content. And the activity code for this episode, which is worth one professional development credit or PDC is 22-PSYNS. Again, that number is 22-P as in Papa, S as in Sierra, Y as in Yankee, N as in November, S as in Sierra.
Jes Osrow:
I got to get my SHRM credits too.
Erica Young:
Absolutely. So Jes, I know you've already sort of touched on some, I think, fantastic advice for emerging HR professionals, students who are thinking about going into an HR career, or folks who are even transitioning careers into HR. I think you've noted some really interesting examples and pieces of how to prepare for tomorrow's challenges. Especially that piece about agility and working on being more agile. I did though want to create a space for you to add anything else about what you think folks who are going into HR or who even are in HR can do now to prepare better for tomorrow's challenges and opportunities.
Jes Osrow:
Seek diverse perspectives, amplify, diverse voices, and being an ally as a verb. Whatever your demographic markers are. And I try to use that versus I default most people to race because it's an easy invisible piece, but I'll use myself as the example. I am white, I am female. I consistently say, "Whose perspective am I not hearing?" And this might be in any role if you're looking to transition to HR, make sure that's part of it. That you're getting those voices. So that when you speak on behalf of them or behalf of a community that you're speaking authentically, that you said, "I have listened to these people." I think that is the most important piece. And also know that HR, in terms of kind of next stages, the roles are evolving.
When you talk about employee experience, when you talk about learning and development and the intersection of DEI with all of that, there's a lot more opportunities than just straight up HR. So again, finding the pieces that work well for you, that align with your skill sets, that align with your personality type, because they're all intersectional and they all need to support each other. And so being open to trying new pieces within it is great. And I know, again, even within the HR space, I rely on my HR generalist, I rely on my head of DEI. I rely on these people to help me be aware of my blind spots and point out things that I may not have thought of. That's the best collaboration. And it usually ends up in laughter because none of us tick care ourselves too seriously, because this is about people. HR gets a very serious and sometimes a very negative wrap, but we're just a bunch of people just like everybody else. And so remembering that if you're not in HR, remembering that if you are in HR and you're blaming yourself for things. But work is changing. And so go along for the ride, figure out skills, learn stuff, take a LinkedIn lesson, take a SHRM course, take a SHRM webinar, whatever. Find those gaps in your own work, where you want to learn more and go for it. Don't be afraid to not know something.
Vernon Williams:
That's fantastic. And I certainly appreciate, Erica, you creating that space to provide the opportunity to discuss some of those meaningful points. The challenges and the opportunities are always going to be there. And it's kind of what we do with it and how do we respond to it? So I certainly appreciate those thoughts and those comments. Just as we wrap things up and we certainly appreciate your time and all of your insights, we'll get you out of here kind of on this question. I want to give a study, a 2019 study. 90% of millennials said it was either somewhat important or very important to them that their work have a positive impact on the world. So given all of your experiences and all of the stories that you've shared, I want to give you a chance to kind of shine a spotlight on a particular moment or a part of your work where you felt your contributions were having a greater impact on the world. And tell us a little bit more about that.
Jes Osrow:
I absolutely love this. I briefly did a stint in the nonprofit space and was very frustrated by the bureaucracy of it. And so I always say I'm a nonprofit girl at heart, but I can't work in that space. And so doing good and providing good for the world is so key. I am a millennial or identify as a millennial. My current employer, Quartet Health, helps people get the mental health care that they need. Personally, the mission lives in me. I love that it's a for-profit, but mission driven. And so when I think about the work, sometimes it's really hard for me to connect my work with helping people get the care they need. But then I look at my conversations from day to day and my partnership with those who are directly on the phone lines with patient, or getting them growth opportunities, or development, or talking them through an L&D opportunity. And I know I'm having the impact. I know I'm getting people to care.
We've had some initiatives where we've donated money to support getting more therapists of color into the roles because there's a severe mental healthcare desert when it comes to providers of color, when it comes to providers who are LGBTQIA+ when it comes to any other often marginalized community or underrepresented community. And so knowing that, I can work at an organization that can have that impact. Again, just one person or a million people, it makes a difference. Therapy has made a huge difference in my life since from the beginning to now. And so knowing that I can support people in that. So bringing it back to businesses, it doesn't necessarily have to be a nonprofit to do good. When you're looking at jobs or if you want to have impact, what are they doing for their corporate social responsibility? How can you be a part of that through HR? What kind of organizations do you support looking at supplier diversity, looking at internship programs, who you're bringing through the ranks? There's a lot of way to ways to think about doing good within an organization. That also helped the bottom line of the organization. And I do think that it is important to think about both because doing good is important, but doing sustainable good is more important in my book, especially when it comes to being an HR professional.
Erica Young:
Absolutely. So many good points and insights. Jes, thank you so much for your time today. I found myself like getting totally lost in our discussion slash taking little notes here and there, and then remembering that we're having a conversation because I could listen all day. But also you just have a lot of really awesome points. I think you mentioned a lot of great tidbits about why again, now more than ever, things are changing in a vast array of ways. So thank you for diving into that. Thank you for sharing your personal examples. I found it incredibly inspirational.
Jes Osrow:
Well, thank you for having me and letting me use both of you, especially Vernon and your son, as examples. It's always helpful for me to work off of real people when talking things through.
Vernon Williams:
Anytime.
Erica Young:
With that, we're going to bring this episode of Career Compass to a close. We'd like to thank SHRM and the SHRM Foundation for providing us with this platform. But more importantly, we'd like to thank all of you for joining us and hope you stay with us throughout the season as we continue to discuss more topics like this one.
Vernon Williams:
For more exclusive content, resources, and tools to help you succeed in your career, consider joining SHRM as a student member. You can visit us at shrm.org/students to learn more about being a part of a community of over 300,000 HR and business leaders who impact the lives of over 115 million employees worldwide.
Erica Young:
And if you liked what you heard, we'd love your subscription. You can find us on Apple Podcast, Spotify, Stitcher, Google Play, or just wherever you listen to podcasts. And do you have a topic that you think we should cover or maybe a guest do you think we should hear from? If you do, we'd love to hear it. Please, don't hesitate to reach out to us. We do check this email account. It is careercompasspodcast@shrm.org.
Vernon Williams:
Lastly, are you looking for a work or career-related podcast? Check out All Things Work and Honest HR at shrm.org/podcasts. Thank you again for listening. We'll catch you on the next episode of Career Compass.