In this episode of Career Compass, hosts Erica Young and Kristy Parola are joined by special guest Jerrin Strayhorn, Manager of Talent Acquisition & Campus Relations at the Thurgood Marshall College Fund to discuss how students and emerging professionals can ace the next job interview. You'll receive insights on interviewing both in-person and virtually, as well as tips on how to study and prepare for the next interview on your calendar.
Interviewing skills are a critical piece in landing any job opportunity, so learn how to set yourself apart. In this episode of Career Compass, hosts Erica Young and Kristy Parola are joined by special guest Jerrin Strayhorn, Manager of Talent Acquisition & Campus Relations at the Thurgood Marshall College Fund to discuss how students and emerging professionals can ace the next job interview. You'll receive insights on interviewing both in-person and virtually, as well as tips on how to study and prepare for the next interview on your calendar.
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Kristy:
Welcome back to Career Compass, a podcast from SHRM, the Society for Human Resource Management and the SHRM Foundation. Career Compass prepares the future leaders today for better workplaces tomorrow.
Erica:
And as the voice of all things work, SHRM supports students and emerging professionals with advice, information, and resources for every step of your career.
Kristy:
Designed for the student and emerging professional, Career Compass delivers timely, relevant, and critical conversations about work to help you succeed in your career journey. Thank you for joining us for this episode. I'm Kristy, and I'm one of your co-hosts today.
Erica:
And I'm Erica. And just so you know, this episode is worth PDCs for the SHRM-CP or SHRM-SCP. So be sure to stay tuned in until the end, where we will share the code.
During this episode, we will discuss the intricacies of working within a talent acquisition function. We'll be joined by a very special guest, Jerrin Strayhorn, who is the program director at the Thurgood Marshall College Fund.
Kristy:
And before we get there, I just want to mention that I am personally so excited for this episode. Before my time here at SHRM, I actually spent some time in talent acquisition and really got to experience recruiting and talent management in a very different time than we are right now. So I'm excited to see how some organizations have shifted and to hear Jerrin's perspective on what he has seen through COVID and through just students coming out of college during this time and trying to land their first job. It'll be very interesting. What do you think Erica?
Erica:
Oh, absolutely. This is a wildly different time. In some ways it reminds me... Not totally, but in some ways it reminds me of around the time when I had entered the workforce. It's something that I've talked about in the past, where I came into the workforce... I'm a millennial, get that out of the way. And so, If you know that, you know that many millennials came into the workforce during the great recession, or soon after. And jobs, they weren't plentiful, salaries weren't very high, there were a lot of challenges in the workforce. And in some ways I'm seeing that mirrored today.
But today, it's really interesting to see how organizations, I think, are responding to these unique challenges because it's not just the pandemic and it's not just the financial uncertainty, but there is this much greater, wider, deeper conversation, I think, happening about diversity in the workplace. Really challenging how we bring diverse people into the workplace. Also challenging what it means to be diverse as a whole and then also challenging how we value and keep diverse people within our organizations and how that translates to the talent acquisition process. I know that I've seen a couple different really interesting things that organizations are doing nowadays to bring diverse folks into their workplaces in a streamlined and efficient, yet fair and as much as possible unbiased manner. I'm really excited to get Jerrin's thoughts today. Great timing to go ahead and introduce him.
Kristy:
Yeah, absolutely. I'm happy to introduce today, Jerrin Strayhorn. Jerrin graduated from North Carolina Central University on a full academic and music scholarship, with a degree in business administration and a concentration in management. During his early career, Jerrin built a successful career in sales and talent acquisition with the Charmer Sunbelt Group also known as the Breakthru Beverage Group, AT&T and Adecco. In 2016, Jerrin joined the Thurgood Marshall College Fund as a manager of talent acquisition and campus relations. There, he is responsible for a territory covering 47 TMCF member schools. Jerrin successfully fostered strong relationships with key university faculty members, developed a diverse pipeline of HBCU scholars, and executed creative development strategies for early-career talent.
As a graduate of HBCU and a TMCF scholar, Jerrin is honored to now work for the organization that provided him opportunities for success post graduation. Currently, Jerrin is the program director of the Hennessy Fellows program, which prepares HBCU graduate-level scholars to unlock to a C-suite through curated professional development workshops, executive-level mentorship, training forums, and one-on-one strategy sessions with career coaches.
Jerrin, welcome to Career Compass. We're so excited to have you today.
Jerrin Strayhorn:
Thank you for having me, I'm excited to be here.
Erica:
Awesome. Well, if you're game, I'd love to just jump right into this huge discussion about talent acquisition and how it's changing today. I think one of the things that we are observing, SHRM in general is observing, and I think many people are observing in general, is this greater emphasis on fit between a candidate and an organization. Both in terms of cultural fit, as well as work fit and practical fit within a role. We're seeing this discussion I think on both sides, both from a candidate perspective, we're seeing, I think, more candidates feel empowered, honestly, to want to be more intentional about the types of organizations and fit that they're looking for. And then we're also of course seeing it on the organizational side, wanting to see much more intentional fit as well. And so I'd love to hear from you your thoughts about that in general, but also when looking for a role, what expectations do you think seekers and candidates should have going into the process?
Jerrin Strayhorn:
I think you're absolutely right. Now has been more of that opportunity for people to see that they want to try and find the place that they're going to want to work for. Nobody wants to go to work every day and say, "I hate being here." I would say that the expectation that anybody should have as they're starting look for a job now is that remember that this is a two-way street. They're not just interviewing you. You're going to be able to interview them as well. I think that also just takes away from some of the anxieties that a lot of people may have when it comes to interviewing. Because if you sit down and remember when you were interviewing for jobs right out of college, you probably were like, "Man, they're going to grill me. I don't know this person [inaudible 00:06:55]. I don't know what to say."
And a lot of times that's because you didn't necessarily understand that you have the opportunity to ask them questions saying, "Hey, why should I come and work for you?" And companies are starting to realize that people have been coaching students, and me in particular, have been coaching students to ask those questions, to make sure that it is a fit. Because at the end of the day, if you're interviewing for this company and they think that you're great, but you don't feel that way about them for you, then it's no point in you even accepting that offer. So I think that's the biggest expectation that people should have of this. Is to realize that, hey, this is a two-way street. It's going to be an opportunity for you to ask questions. Don't think of it as they're sitting there and grilling you. They honestly just want to get to know you the same way that you want to get to know them.
Erica:
Totally. I did want to ask a quick follow-up question to that. Everything you just said makes total sense for me. For background purposes, I have about 10 years in the workplace and as a working person. And when it comes to fit, I feel more empowered with everything you just said. It's my choice where I want to go. I have the power to ask the right questions, et cetera. I do though remember feeling, when I came out of college, or even just in my early career, like I didn't feel empowered to say that I could make a choice based off of fit. I just had to take what I had to take. And part of that was because of the recession because jobs were really tight. You had to take what you could get.
And also part of it, I think was being new in the workforce and not really knowing exactly what my value was and how valuable it was at the time, and I think continues to be, made it even harder. I did want to ask for your follow-up thoughts on if you're new to the workforce and not feeling totally empowered to really make a choice based off of fit and true fit based on everything you've shared, what is the next best thing? What advice would you give to a student?
Jerrin Strayhorn:
That's a good question. If I, for instance, was coming out of college and I wasn't comfortable saying, "I don't have the opportunity to take a job just based off of fit, what should I really consider?"
Erica:
Yeah. Maybe it's considerations before even putting in applications. I think a lot of people think about... For example, those who don't feel like they have a lot of options or feel pressured by the whole process to get a job as soon as possible, they think that quantity of applications, as better than, let's say, quality of applications. I've heard a lot of people say "It's just a numbers game. Just get as many applications out there. And then if it fits, it fits. If it doesn't, it doesn't." What advice would you give to someone who's caught between that quote-unquote "Rock and a hard place"?
Jerrin Strayhorn:
I think that you're absolutely right. There's that rock and a hard place of people telling you it's a numbers game. And me, coming from sales, I can somewhat agree with that. But even though it is a numbers game, it's not necessarily a all-out numbers game. When you're starting to apply for jobs, you want to start looking for jobs that you feel like you would be a good fit for too. Let's say you're a engineering major or something like that. And you want to apply for all these different engineering roles. First start out with the companies that you always wanted to work for, apply there for the job that you feel like is going to be the best fit for you, then take it a step back and apply for places that you may not have thought about.
As you're putting in those applications, start doing the research for those companies, don't just literally apply for everything. Because if you do that, then of course you may get some yeses on some job interviews that you may not even really want. I can't tell you how many times I've interviewed students or even just talked to students and said, "Have you started applying? Do you have any interviews set up anywhere?" And they're like, "Oh yeah, yeah. I just can't remember who they are with or when I applied for it" and things like that. You don't want that to be the case, because if you say yes to setting up an interview with somebody, they're literally going to assume, "Hey, this person is interested in what I have to talk to them about." And then you get on the phone and you're like, "Well, I don't even remember who you guys are or why I'm here talking to you."
Yes, it is a numbers game, but it's a strategic numbers game. You don't want to just cast a extremely wide net. You want to cast a strategically wide net so that when it comes down to you actually getting those callbacks, you have those, let's say, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 interviews that you really are interested in interviewing for.
Kristy:
And that's funny, Jerrin, you... As I mentioned earlier, right before I came to SHRM, I was working in talent acquisition. And you just gave me some major throwback moments where I would call somebody for a phone screen and they'd be like, "Who is this again? Why are you calling me? Oh, what job did I apply for?"
So it's very funny that you mention that. And leaning into one of my next questions. When you're applying for jobs, there's a bunch of things. How do I stand out? What are some of the differences when you're trying to mix between... Especially in HR, trying to go in between HR for a construction industry or a medical field, all those things are different. And so I want to touch on a couple topics. What are the must-dos when you're submitting your application? If you could just start by some general things and I'll follow up with some more specific questions under that topic as well.
Jerrin Strayhorn:
You have to, one, remember on paper... And for me in particular, when I was in talent acquisition, that space, we were literally looking at the cream of the crop students. So literally everybody on paper is the same. So when it comes down to it, I would interview students and I'd tell them all the time "What's going to separate you from the next person?" And that's literally being yourself. You have to be yourself in the interview. Why are you the person for this job? The infamous "Tell me about yourself" question. I'm probably going to get a lot of flak for saying this. I hate that question because it's way too general. If I sit down and told you "Hey, tell me about yourself," you might literally start telling me that your favorite color is purple. You have seven dogs and on every other Sunday, you like to go to Target and just walk around and people-watch.
Honestly, I don't care. It's nice to know information, but at the same time, I usually would set up my interviews to where I'm asking them about themselves. And at the end of the interview, I'll say, "Okay, why should I choose you over the 500 other people that might have interviewed for this position or for this opportunity." They'll go through all of these things and they may highlight all of the things that they talked about throughout the interview. Some people may, some people may not, but at the same time, I'm giving them that coaching opportunity and saying, "Okay, you notice I didn't tell you to answer the question tell me about yourself." And they'll say, "Yeah, yeah. I noticed that. I was really looking forward to that one because I had practiced it."
I said, "I didn't need to ask you that because I asked you everything else about yourself. And you told me everything that needs to go into that answer. You literally put together your elevator pitch by answering all of the questions in the interview. Now's your time to highlight all of those things and wrap it up in a nice little 30-second, minute bow and give that elevator pitch to me." So really what you want to do to separate yourself is to literally just be yourself. There's only one you in this entire world. So be yourself in the interview and that will definitely come through. You have all of these accolades, all of these accomplishments and all of these skills, be able to talk about them when you get into the interview room and that just comes with practice.
Kristy:
When you're looking at... In person, but you've got to get through that first hurdle which is how do I get them to separate my resume from somebody else? It's something that I've learned. When I was in school, I started out in sports med and then went to hospitality. And every time I went, I was so confused at why my resume was looking so drastically different. And I think there's a lot of pressure to have your resume look a certain way, but there's not really one way for that to look. Especially coming out of school when every school, every professor, every class teaches it a different way. What are some guidance that you can provide students on what way should they go with their resume. What are the important things to consider for what it's they're looking to do?
Jerrin Strayhorn:
I think that you're right. You don't have to have a specific template. Literally, if you were to go on the internet right now and google TMCF resume template, you'll find a word doc that gives you a template of what we think is the most successful resume. You could do that for anybody else and they'll probably give you a template that shows you the most successful resume template. Literally Word has a resume template in it. There's so many different ways that you can format your resume, but the way that I feel would be able to help you stand out in that scenario is really just what you're putting into your resume. For instance, if you are working at McDonald's, don't just tell me that you rank customers up and that you provided customer service. Tell me what you actually did to contribute value to that company.
If you're not the shift leader, but you may have thought of a way to cut down on serve times, put that in your resume. Put together a solid resume, telling me what it is that you actually did, not the duties and task that's assigned or anything like that. Don't copy and paste your job description from McDonald's or [PacSun 00:18:04] or wherever. Make sure that you're actually telling me what you did so that I can see that and say, "Oh, this is somebody I might be interested in working with."
Kristy:
Do you guys offer any resources or recommend any resources for students and emerging professionals to go and maybe find some help and guidance on developing their resume?
Jerrin Strayhorn:
Like I said, we have that resume template out there. It's also on our website, www.tmcf.org. We have a resource library there where you can find out how to apply for different scholarships, the resume template. I believe we also have a link to our online learning management system there as well. But also if you're in school, one thing that I did not really take advantage of was the Career Services department, which is ironic. I was a business major, you're supposed to go to career services And I come across this all the time. Students don't go to career services. Or I'll talk with the director and they'll say, "Nobody comes to me until the senior year, last semester and they need a job because they don't want to go stay home with their mom."
I would go to career services, but I don't think I really even paid attention to the fact that it was career services. My professor said, "Hey, if you go do this mock interview in this location, then we'll give you extra credit. Or you can be excused from class that day." Me being me, I just wanted to get out of class that day, but it ended up helping me in the long run. But I think that is probably the first stop a lot of people should go, especially if you're currently in college or even if you just recently graduated college, I'd say within maybe one to two years, the same people are probably there. You can always go back and talk to them and have them work with you on those things. So when I would go out on campus and talk to students, I would always say, "Hey, make sure that your first stop is here so that when it comes time for you to talk to me, you already have all of these things ready and you're ready to go."
Erica:
Absolutely. Great feedback. Especially around using the actual career center. I feel like I knew a lot of people, would say the exact same thing. Honestly, looking back at their college days and thinking "Why didn't I use the resources that were available to me." I want to change directions a little bit, because we've been talking about the candidate side, the resume side. I think one thing that, thinking back to when I came into career out of college, and honestly even in the past several years being in the working world, I feel like there's been a lot of confusion about an interview process. And I think it's been confusing at least for me personally, because I think it's adapted a lot over time. I would think that those coming into their careers or being early in their careers would want to know what's possible.
And what do different possible outlines for that interview hiring process look like. Because some organizations, they have these very long interview process, processes rather where they have rounds and every round has four or five interviews in them. I've also seen other organizations where they have fewer numbers of interviews, but longer periods of time. And so all of that to say, I think our listeners would really benefit from your experience with that interview hiring process and what people can come to expect. I have a two-parter question. One is what are some of the different scenarios that you see with an interviewing process, in terms of number of interviews, length of the interview time? What are the kinds of interviews and the kinds of questions that they're asking during them? And then I'll transition, and I'll ask it again, but also curious to hear what's your interview process look like at TMCF.
Jerrin Strayhorn:
Yeah, definitely. I'll start with our interview process. The interview process that I usually would run would be you complete the application, the application itself is probably [inaudible 00:22:39]. The interview process may not take that long, but the application itself may be lengthy where we try to expose our students to things that they can come across out in the workforce. Like you said, a lot of companies are changing their processes a little bit. They may do virtual interviews first. They may have a recorded interview. They may have you do assessments before you even get to the interview process. We like to incorporate that into the application itself. The application may take you anywhere between... It could take you 10 to 15 minutes. Our longest one I'd say probably takes an hour and a half if you sit down and do it all [inaudible 00:23:27] then and there but you can always break it up, which is a great thing about technology. A lot of times you can break it up, you come back and do what you have to do.
Now when it comes to actually getting that application, we'll reach out, we'll set up some time to do maybe a phone screen. Well, technically now a lot of things are phone screens now. So we'll set up some time to do a phone screen/face-to-face interview. And face-to-face being Zoom at this point. And then from there, usually that's our last step. We've already gotten all of the information that we would need to assess you. For lack of a better term, to make our assessment.
The interview is really that last piece. Us talking to you is that last piece for us to be able to make that decision. However, you may not hear back from us for a couple of weeks, but we'll always tell you that. "Hey, don't expect an answer before this date." That way you don't have your hopes up. And I can't tell you... For me, when I was interviewing... If I interviewed with you and you tell me this is the last step, I want a response back within the next two weeks. But now being on this side, I understand you want an answer in the next two weeks, but I need to set the expectation with you "Hey, this is when you'll more than likely receive a response. It'll more than likely be around summertime after graduation so don't get your hopes up that we've made selections anytime before that, but here's when you can expect that."
And that's also a great question to ask in the interview as the interviewee, "Hey, when do you guys expect to make it a decision on this position?" Or "What is the timeline past this, if this is the last step?" Getting an understanding and setting the expectations for yourself so that you don't sit here and wait in limbo. And I think that's probably the one time you can set it and forget it type of situation. You finished the application process. You may have sent out your emails and things like that. They responded and they told you, "Hey, this is when you should expect a response." And then you remember as you get a little bit closer to that date, say, "Oh, okay. I remember I'm supposed to get a response here. So let me reach back out around this timeframe."
What I've seen from other companies is something very similar. I've worked with a few companies that will incorporate the assessments into their application process to do a, I'll say, weeding out in the application process, as opposed to sending in the application, taking you through 25 different interviews with 15 different people in the company and things like that. Now they have all of these applications coming in and they have those gates to let you know, "Okay, these are the people that you may want to interview." The purpose of us exposing students to all of these different interviewing or application processes is to prepare them for what they could see across different organizations.
Erica:
Awesome. That's great that you're doing a lot of prep for students, especially because the process can vary so much. I love that you mentioned also assessments. I love that you mentioned it because I think assessments are this... I think of them as this messy world of just changing attitudes around assessments. And what I mean by that is, in the past, organizations have certainly used assessments to be a first step in assessing whether or not a candidate's going to be a good fit. The problem though, I think in the past is that a lot of organizations used assessments like cognitive assessments or personality assessments, which isn't to say that they're necessarily bad, but it's also not to say that those assessments can predict that students and that people are going to be successful in their role, in the role that they're applying for. It's not necessarily a direct correlation. There's also some issues quite frankly, especially with cognitive assessments around adverse impact. And how BIPOC folks and women are less likely to do well on cognitive assessments. And as a result, they are more likely to be impacted in the hiring process.
But one thing that I have seen in the assessment world is around job simulation assessments. Larger organizations are usually doing them or have them more often than smaller organizations. But I think it's an interesting transition and I think it's worth mentioning because at least from my angle of working in this place of the crux of work in technology, I think I'm seeing more organizations take more innovative approaches to assessing candidates and whether or not they'll be successful within the job that they're applying for. And they're using some more of these creative, I think, assessments in that process. I'm glad that you mentioned that. I am curious and wanting to follow up on, we had talked briefly about the process involving a phone screen versus a later stage interview. For those who don't have a lot of experience with a phone screen, at the beginning of the process, how would you advise a student or emerging professional to prepare for a phone screen versus those later stage interviews?
Jerrin Strayhorn:
That's a good question. I have my own feelings towards phone screens because as extroverted as I may seem to a lot of different people, I hated phone screens because I couldn't read your body language. That was the one thing that I hated about the interview process because I always felt, if I can get in front of you, sit down and interview with you, then I will be okay. But if I have to sit here and go off of silence on a phone screen, then I have no idea where I stand in this process. That threw my anxiety through the roof.
Kristy:
It does to me too. I completely get it.
Jerrin Strayhorn:
The way that I would say to prepare for those is to really prepare the same way that you would for an in-person interview. They're going to ask you a lot of those same questions. As you get to the later stages in the interview process, they'll probably ask you a lot more about your actual, technical abilities, because by that point you're going to be interviewing with maybe the hiring manager, the directors and different people like that. Usually a lot of times the initial phone screen is with someone in HR. And they're trying to get a good fit and they're taking questions from the hiring manager and saying, "Hey, could you ask questions around this competency or this situation" or different things like that.
Prepare for it the exact same way, because at the end of the day, that person in HR still works for that company. You still need to do your research on the company. You still need to find those facts or those fun facts that connect to you. Whether it's their social responsibility or you like the fact that they're using sustainable energy or something like that. Keep that in mind. You still want to do that research on the company. Don't just tell me, "Oh, last year you guys increased your revenues 15% as you expected to do the year before." No, don't tell me that. Anybody can go read that report. You need to tell me about the things that's going connect to you. We started this conversation talking about what's the good culture fit or the good work fit for you as a person. Those are the things that you need to research. How is this going to be a good fit for you?
My mother is also in talent acquisition too. She would always coach me. She was my personal interviewing coach as I was interviewing in college. And she would always tell me, stand up, be in an environment where you can give off that same energy that you would give off in a face-to-face interview. If you need to do the interview in a mirror, so it's not like you're really... I mean, you're looking at yourself, but you also feel like there may be somebody else in the room, do that. Don't just sit down, don't lay down. I know for a lot of us, we could literally be in a meeting nowadays and be laying in our bed, eating munchies or something like that. You still want to give off that same energy in that interview because that's what's going to help get you to the next step.
Kristy:
I think you make a great point. And I can't tell you how many times... And it's funny, like I say, you keep giving me throwback moments here. I think as somebody who's being interviewed, you often forget that you can still... The person who's interviewing you, whether they're in HR or they are from some other contracted company, they can hear what's going on in your background. They can hear everything that's happening. And I know personally, you try not to hold it against people because you know life is crazy and things are busy, especially now in times of COVID. You want to make sure that you're giving it the same amount of deliberate purpose as you are if you're going to go sit down in front of somebody. Cannot tell you how many times I've heard, "Oh, well... Hi, I got to... Let me go grab the leash so I can walk my dog and do this phone screen with you." Or "Here, let me finish... Let me do the dishes while I'm..."
And it's great, I understand things are going on, but you really should treat it just as... Be just as intentional as you are trying to do it in person. If you're multitasking, [inaudible 00:33:54]. They say you can't really multitask and do two things just as well as you can do one thing. There's no way you can do as well doing an interview and something else as you could just be doing an interview. I'm so glad you mentioned that, because it's very important that you dedicate the time that you assign yourself to the interview, no matter what form it's in.
Jerrin Strayhorn:
Exactly. You're absolutely right. I've talked to many people... I think I've even had an instance where someone told me to hold on so they could take another call real quick. I was like, "What is going on here?"
Kristy:
Yes.
Erica:
What?
Kristy:
[inaudible 00:34:28].
Erica:
Oh my gosh.
Jerrin Strayhorn:
I think you come across literally any and everything as an interviewer. That was probably one of the most surprising things that's happened to me in a interview. It really did throw me for a loop because it was a phone screen. I was like, "Well, what's going on here? You should really be paying attention to what I have to say because I'm going to get you to the next step."
Kristy:
Leading into my next question that I have for you, which was communication and etiquette. I think, not just verbally, but through email. I'm sure you, as we're starting to relate a little bit here in our fun memories of recruiting and interviewing, it's so easy when you're doing email and other communication etiquette... Without diving into a grammar lesson, what are some of the red flags that candidates should avoid? And what are some of the tips that you would give to your audience when communicating to recruiters and hiring managers? I personally think not only how you interview stands out, but how you communicate through email or in person is also going to set you apart. Because a lot of people are losing that, I don't want to say, traditional etiquette, but some part of it still holds true, I think.
Jerrin Strayhorn:
I would say that... You said without jumping into a grammar lesson. I would say just check your grammar. Grammarly is free on the internet. They have a free service. I use it because I would have typos all throughout my email. People coach me on it. They say, "Hey, read your emails maybe two or three times before you send it out." So I said, "You know what? That takes a long time. Let me find a tool that could probably help with that." Read your emails, definitely do that. If you're responding to someone, make sure that you're actually spelling their name correctly. I have a name that is misheard all the time. I get called anywhere between Jared, Jerry, Jeremy, all of those things every day. But if my name is literally right there in front of you, give that person the respect to actually put their name in the email and then... Those are really the red flags, that small attention to detail really.
The one other thing I would probably say is, even if you are going to copy and paste the same exact letter to the five people that you interviewed with, don't put them all on the same email, make it feel like it's personal. The same way that you would write the same exact letter to someone and send it over to them, or hand write it and send it over to them, you're not going to put all five of those letters in the same envelope and say, "Hey, can you disperse these when you get the envelope?" No, make sure that you separate it out and then also find that point in the interview where you can say, "I really appreciate you giving me the feedback on this," or "I liked our conversation around this part of the job" or whatever the case is.
This is now your time, again, to reiterate what you've done to help you in that aspect, to say, "Hey, I thank you again for the opportunity. Thank you for talking to me about this job. I liked our conversation around this. Again, I am doing something in this space." Expound on it from there. Have a actual response, don't just say, "Thank you for the interview. I look forward to hearing from you soon." That should probably be your closing as opposed to the entire email.
There's not too many red flags. It's really just that small attention to detail. Because again, like I say, if you spell someone's name incorrectly, or if you have a million typos throughout your email... I personally will probably overlook one or two, but if literally every other line has something that has a typo, I'm going to be like, "Okay, let me reconsider how I felt about this person." You could have had the best interview of the year for that interviewer but if you have that many typos or you're not really paying attention to what you're sending out, you'll really start to rethink how you felt about this person. It could be something that you say, "Hey, I like this person, but you might really want focus on their attention to detail if you sit down and interview them."
Kristy:
And it might be ironic too, because I'm sure at some point in your interview, they asked you about your attention to detail and then you're going to not spell the name right. I've seen that once or twice, yep.
Erica:
Absolutely. I want to switch gears a little bit here, because I think that we're... I think these are some really good points about what to avoid. I'd love, though, to hear your thoughts on what has really impressed you in the job interview process. I'd love you to take a moment, think about some of the interviews that you've done, people you got to know, conversations had, what were some qualities or traits that really impressed you during the interview process?
Jerrin Strayhorn:
Ooh, I can probably give you common themes for those interviews.
Erica:
Sure. Themes are great too.
Jerrin Strayhorn:
The biggest thing is literally your passion and knowledge of the subject. I don't know everything, but if you can make me feel like you know everything in the world there is to know about it, I am thoroughly impressed. Especially when it comes to talking about computers and finance or management or whatever the case is. If you can cite sources from books and quotes that people may have made or you have sat in on podcast or webinars or whatever the case is, those are the things that I'm really interested in hearing about. Even though, yeah, you're a great person, but tell me why you're interested in this. What is it that really attracts you to this specific area?
Now a lot of the interviews that I do are for very general positions. I'm literally asking them, "Hey, what are some things that may interest you?" Or "I see that you're majoring in chemical engineering. What got you into that? Why are you doing this?" That's where they start to dive into that passion. That's really what has impressed me. And then also that confidence and that humility. Those can be two opposite ends of the spectrum. I always coach students. I say, "I want you to find this line of being confident and humble at the same time. Don't go too far on the confidence side because you'll come across as cocky, but don't come across too humble because you'll come across as somebody who's not sure of themselves or that is not someone that can take the criticism and go with the flow. So I want you to be able to..."
I want students, and people in general, I want them to find that fine balance because it will be hard. Like I said, they're two opposite ends of the spectrum, but if you can come across as someone who's confident, who's humble, truly humble, not just fake humble. There was a song that came out not too long ago that said be humble throughout the entire song. And I feel like that was the ignition for everybody to say, "Oh, just be humble, be humble." And everybody was fake humble for the longest. It was tough to figure out who it was. But when you're actually sitting down and talking to someone, having a genuine conversation, you can tell who's actually humble and who's actually willing to take that criticism, or not criticism, I'll say critique and feedback and actually apply it because they actually are engaged in what you're saying. But they're also confident in the fact that, "Hey, I still know what I'm talking about here."
That's really what's impressed me, is that passion and knowledge about whatever subject it is that they are pursuing. And then also that confidence and that humility as well.
Erica:
I love that. And I want to just add, I was actually talking to a friend of mine who is a recruiter, recently, at a large corporation. She had mentioned something very similar, but she called it grace. She was talking about showing up humbly. But what that essentially translates into is if you don't know the answer, it's okay to say that and say you don't know the answer. For them and for their culture, she was saying that actually shows strength to them. That they're not trying to cover up anything in the moment or frantically freak out. But instead voice that they need more time or voice that they're thinking about a good response to their great question or that it shows that they're really engaged in the conversation, but they also are recognizing that the interviewer is waiting on them and essentially showing grace on both ends.
I loved that. I was like, "What a..." It doesn't seem too revolutionary, but it does, having gone through... All of us have gone through interviews, because all of us are employed. Having gone through interviews where there's so much pressure, we put so much pressure on ourselves to show up and be the most perfect version of ourselves in the interview. It was nice to hear from another recruiter that they weren't expecting people to show up perfect. They just wanted people to show up, be authentic and share when they were struggling or share when they needed more time or the like.
Jerrin Strayhorn:
Exactly. It comes from feeling like you have to know it all, like you said, but when you get on the job, they don't expect you to know everything. A lot of times I'll ask you a question just because I'm curious to know a little bit more about it and it could have literally nothing to do with the interview. It could just be, "Oh, that sounds interesting. Can you tell me about this, I read something somewhere that said X, Y, Z. Have you heard about that?" But if you tell me "No, I haven't," I'll go look it up. I'm okay with that. I don't expect you to know everything in the interview.
Kristy:
And I think it'd be interesting to see, too, you get to the end, you don't know something... I know as a recruiter, I've seen very few people than a lot who have sent a follow-up email or call after an interview. And that would probably be a great opportunity to follow up and not just thank them, but say, "Hey, I've thought more about your question. And here's what I'd have to say about that."
Jerrin Strayhorn:
It's funny that you say that, I interviewed someone for a program and they said that's how they got the internship. They were asked a question about coding or something like that. It stunned them so bad. They were flown out for the interview. They gave them this problem and say, "Hey, can you fix this for us?" They told him to write it down on the whiteboard and all of that. They went through the whiteboard session and he was like, "I don't know how I wasn't able to come up with the answer. I think it might have just been stressed or whatever the case was." But he went back to his hotel room that night and figured out where he went wrong. And he said he emailed them that night and said, "Hey, thank you again for the opportunity. I took some time to really think about the problem that you presented me with. I saw where I made my mistake. Here's the answer that you were looking for."
I was like, "That's amazing. I'm glad that you did that. I would've probably never thought to do that, but I'm glad that you did it." And so he was like, "Yeah, I ended up getting the internship and they called me back the next week and said, 'Yeah, you got it.'" I was like, "Wow, that's amazing." It's always cool to hear those things. People don't think about just following up like that. We talked about following up. We talked about the etiquette and things like that. But the way that you follow up is really what can set you apart from other people as well.
Kristy:
Very impactful. Absolutely. I do want to ask too, one question that's going to take us out of the interviewing mindset as a candidate and what your experience has been over the past year and a half. I was in recruiting back in November of 2019. Depending on the part of the country you're in, the unemployment rate could have been anywhere from 1.5% to 3.5% making it very challenging to get through the hiring process. I know personally I would get somebody in for a phone screen and then all of a sudden they got a job between the 24 hours I got them from a phone screen to an in-person interview or so on. Or you'd get them the offer letter, and then 24 hours, by the time you gave them the offer letter, they went and accepted another job. It was very tight like that. And today the unemployment rate hovers around 6.7% or higher in some areas of the country. What changes have you seen in recruiting efforts from past to present and how is that affecting students and emerging professionals that you've worked with?
Jerrin Strayhorn:
That's a good question. I'm in a very interesting space. I am somewhat of an intermediary between the students and the organizations that are hiring these students. When it comes to the trends and things that I've seen from the different organizations, I've seen that you're absolutely right. Not even two years ago people were getting jobs left and right. I've also seen, in the past year offer letters may have decreased quite a bit for a lot of these students. Whereas in 2019, they may have had five offer letters that they could have been looking at, that same person could have two in 2020. So when it comes to different trends around who these companies are, the biggest thing that I think, and I hope I'm answering your question when I say this is that a lot of these companies are figuring out that they actually have to sell themselves to these people.
Not only is it... We talked about it right when we first started, you had to take what you could, because we were coming in at a recession, even though unemployment is relatively high at this point, people still want to work for somebody that they like. We've noticed that companies are starting to have to actually sell themselves. We've had to have those conversations with different companies and say, "Hey, look, you can't just sit on your name anymore. You can't just be number one in your industry anymore and expect people to come and work for you. A lot of the people that are coming to work for you, they may know that you're number one in your industry, but at the same time, they've always had you around. They didn't really have people to tell you or to tell them all of the great things that you've done. They just see the here and now."
So for instance, we're dealing with Gen Z right now, and I don't even know who's after Gen Z. I just know that Gen Z is about to enter the workforce or has entered the workforce.
Kristy:
It just [inaudible 00:50:54].
Jerrin Strayhorn:
You have to be able to engage them to where it's like, "Okay, how do I get this person to want to come and work for me, even though this could be their only option?" If I have the option between not working for someone and working for someone I like, then I would obviously want them to take the option of coming to work for me because they like who I am as opposed to just sitting at home and saying, "Ah, I'll wait."
I think the biggest thing is really the engagement with the students or with potential employees and having to sell themselves. Because we can't just rest on Zoom anymore. We've seen it all on Zoom. Everybody has really gotten tired of it. Zoom fatigue is real. I've worked from home since 2016 and I'm okay with it. But I also had a portion of my job where I would be in front of people alive. So when they took that away from me, I was like, "I can't do this. I got to get out. I got to be in front of people." But we have to find those creative ways to engage with these students that are entering into the workforce or with these potential employees. And how are we going to do that? So a lot of people have just be been getting creative with how they can engage with people to one, get their name out. And then two, let these people know that they care and start to find these potential employees for themselves.
Erica:
Absolutely. Totally. I think it's one of the more interesting things that's happening right now, is watching organizations adapt or elevate their brand in order to not only speak, I think, to younger emerging leader audiences. But I think also to address some of the things that the younger generations are valuing and saying that they want. I think it's fun to see that transition happening. And I say fun because I think that these are things... What younger professionals want nowadays are important.
Jerrin Strayhorn:
Exactly.
Erica:
They don't want crazy things. They want social responsibility for the organization that they work for. And they want a meaningful work environment. I think these are normal, exciting things. And it's nice to see organizations take responsibility in that direction. Jerrin, I'm really sad to say this, because this episode's really fun, but we do have to close out.
Jerrin Strayhorn:
Oh, man.
Erica:
I though want to ask you one more question if you will.
Jerrin Strayhorn:
Okay.
Erica:
And that is, thinking... You've already given a plethora of amazing advice. I want you to think about one piece of advice that you would give to all emerging professionals and students who are currently in the interview and hiring process. What would that one piece of advice be?
Jerrin Strayhorn:
I would say... As cliche as it may sound. I've said this a few times throughout the podcast, is that you really truly have to be yourself. Remember that it's just a conversation. They're not asking you questions to trip you up. And if they are, then you probably didn't want to work for them in the first place.
Erica:
Absolutely.
Jerrin Strayhorn:
And that you're interviewing them just as much as they're interviewing you. So just remember that. It's a two way street. Be yourself. It's just a conversation. If you look at it that way, you'll really feel like... Me, I know I'm different because I can interview or I can sit down and talk with somebody and just talk with them. But for someone who doesn't do that all the time, it could be hard. But if you think about it as "Hey, this person really just wants to get to know me on a professional level. I don't have to go out and party with this person the next day or anything like that." They really just want to know about who I am on a professional level. It should ease a lot of those anxieties that you may have. Don't think too deep into it. It's really not that deep. It's not rocket science. Everything that you've done to prepare, hopefully you have prepared, going into it, all of those things you're going encounter in the interview. You've practiced for a reason in that you don't have to go into it blind.
That's the biggest piece of advice, is just be yourself. Remember, it's just a conversation and you also get the opportunity to ask questions. That's part of a conversation, right? Just keep that in mind.
Erica:
Absolutely. This feedback reminds me... Just to wrap this up. It reminds me of acting. So right now, nowadays in a lot of acting classes and the acting coaching, a lot of coaches nowadays are really saying, "You have to show up as yourself because you will shine that much brighter essentially as a candidate for a role, for a part that you're going to play and they're going to see it that much brighter." And I think that it is a perfect correlation to showing up as a candidate in an interviewing process too. To your point, when you are yourself, you shine as yourself as authentically you as possible, which I think can only bring you positives in the process.
Jerrin Strayhorn:
Exactly.
Erica:
Well, thank you so much Jerrin for taking the time to share about your experience, both on the interviewer side and general experience with interviewing. I think it's been really insightful and really interesting.
Jerrin Strayhorn:
Definitely. I've enjoyed it. I really appreciate you guys inviting me to come and talk. This is my first podcast, but I think it's always fun to be in the hot seat, especially as someone who does interviews all the time. I think it's always fun to be in the hot seat, keeps you on your toes, keep you ready.
Kristy:
It was so fun chatting with you Jerrin and thank you so much for letting us be your first podcast experience, but we're going to have to bring this episode to a close. We'd like to thank SHRM and the SHRM Foundation for providing us with this platform. But more importantly, we'd love to thank you for joining us. If you liked what you heard, we'd love your subscription. You can find us on Apple Podcast, Spotify, Stitcher, Google Play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. And do you have a topic you think we should cover or a guest we should hear from? We'd love to hear it. Email us at careercompasspodcast@shrm.org and make sure to join us next time as we discuss the experience of managing a global talent function.
Erica:
And finally, are you looking for more work and career-related podcasts? I highly suggest you check out our All Things Work and Honest HR podcast, which you can find at shrm.org/podcasts. And thank you again so much for listening. We'll catch you on the next episode of Career Compass.
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